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HomeAircraftHelicopterHelicopter Main Discussion › Gyro Manufacturers: Build a Gyro that is not susceptible to vibrations.
04-09-2010 12:31 AM  8 years agoPost 1
Rockohaulic

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Canyon Country, CA, USA, 3rd Rock from the Sun

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OK Gyro manufacturers – What Gives? Did you forget who is buying your products?

Helicopter pilots.

And I'll let you in on a little secret – Helicopters Vibrate!

A lot. It is inherent in their design. Period. Especially the nitros.

They are built from a thousand moving parts, some parts as large as 710mms, all powered, in the case of nitros, by a single piston engine spinning at 18,000 rpm! Holy mother of all things not smooth!

So I challenge you - Design a gyro that isn’t susceptible to vibrations – build it, and they will come!

Yes we know you can build them ridiculously tiny. Whoopie. Woo Hooo. Yeee Haaaaa. Throw a party. Who gives a cr@p!

One manufacturer is deservedly proud of their little gem - they saved 9 grams over the competition. You know that means so much to me on my 11 lb (4,989 grams) helicopter. So very much.

Here’s a little tidbit from Futaba’s Website (GY520 Gyro):
Due to the high performance of the gyro, it is sensitive to any harmonics and/or vibrations. As such, the mounting methodology is very critical. The user needs to experiment with the isolation tape and the location of the gyro itself.
Blah blah blah.

Why are we doing the experimenting? Am I being paid to do the research and development???

Here’s a novel idea: Design a product that works optimally on the product it is being built for.

Design Criteria 101 – Here We Go…..

We don’t really need anything smaller than a 401. So why not take your new tiny micro widget, and encase it in something that is not susceptible to vibrations. Place your tiny box in the bigger box and stuff it with unvibrationum (the 117 element on the periodic table), or Gels or foams or toothpaste for all I care.

Go out there and take the measurements, pound the pavement, do the research and development, and figure out how to make it work despite the vibrations. Maybe you might have to have 2 or more platforms to cover 90 percent of the vibration cases. Maybe.

But anything is better than what we have right now.

Anyway, I will be the first in a very long line to buy your product.

Good luck!

Saturday morning I flew my helicopter in my pajamas
How it got in my pajamas I'll never know

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04-09-2010 12:36 AM  8 years agoPost 2
george0079

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USA

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You tell 'em, Rock...

Hell... I can fix that.
Uh oh..
Nope.
It's ***ked!!!
RE-KIT!!!!!

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04-09-2010 12:36 AM  8 years agoPost 3
ShuRugal

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Killeen, TX

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So I challenge you - Design a gyro that isn’t susceptible to vibrations – build it, and they will come!
eh, electronic gyros work on vibration. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vibrat...cture_gyroscope

if you vibrate something that is designed to sense movement by change in a vibrating part....

AMA 700159

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04-09-2010 12:39 AM  8 years agoPost 4
Showstopper

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pensacola, Fl

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I have never had any problems with any of my gyros. How do you purpose this gyro be completely vibration isolated? Its not that easy to design a passive vibration isolated device. Especially a device that is critically damped for all of the different vibrations that could occur on a helo.

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04-09-2010 12:41 AM  8 years agoPost 5
jackheli

rrProfessor

Vancouver - Canada

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That would be the best thing after sliced cheese

It's easy to find an excuse to do wrong. Hard is not to find an excuse to do right.

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04-09-2010 12:44 AM  8 years agoPost 6
Rockohaulic

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Canyon Country, CA, USA, 3rd Rock from the Sun

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Its not that easy to design a passive vibration isolated device. Especially a device that is critically damped for all of the different vibrations that could occur on a helo.
I agree it's not easy. But it's doable.

Most of the guys I fly with have electric helis and nitros, and with our nitros, we basically put up with the fact that the tail is not as rock solid as they are on the electrics which have much less vibration.

I would love if my nitro was anywhere near as rock solid as my electric.

Saturday morning I flew my helicopter in my pajamas
How it got in my pajamas I'll never know

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04-09-2010 12:51 AM  8 years agoPost 7
Showstopper

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pensacola, Fl

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Don't forget to take into account the Head speed difference. Most electrics fly at higher head speeds then their nitro powered counter part. This may not always be true but give the extra horse power produced by the electric head speed does not drop as much as the nitro version either.

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04-09-2010 12:57 AM  8 years agoPost 8
Gyronut

rrProfessor

Martinsville In.

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That's a grt chalenge Rock..

I hope someone listens and develops a air isolated gyro...

Rick

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04-09-2010 01:07 AM  8 years agoPost 9
Rockohaulic

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Canyon Country, CA, USA, 3rd Rock from the Sun

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if you vibrate something that is designed to sense movement by change in a vibrating part....
They are designed to sense and counteract angular movement, not vibration.

Saturday morning I flew my helicopter in my pajamas
How it got in my pajamas I'll never know

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04-09-2010 01:19 AM  8 years agoPost 10
BLUETHUNDER

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Glass City

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Instead of Gyro tape have "Gordi" hold it to the helicopter with
Tractor Beam Tape, used on all Beam Helicopters? And make the case
from transparent aluminum.

LOL,

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04-09-2010 01:22 AM  8 years agoPost 11
Rockohaulic

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Canyon Country, CA, USA, 3rd Rock from the Sun

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transparent aluminum.
Why I do believe we have a trekie in our midst.

Saturday morning I flew my helicopter in my pajamas
How it got in my pajamas I'll never know

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04-09-2010 01:40 AM  8 years agoPost 12
Frank Bostwick

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Cincinnati Ohio

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Best idea of the year nomination

RIP ROMAN

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04-09-2010 01:49 AM  8 years agoPost 13
outhouse

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auburn ca

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I personaly think its a bad idea.

its like a early warning detector for parts going bad.

fix the vibes and she will fly fine.

not one of my helis in 2 years has had a gyro issue if the craft was fine.

I had a drift i could not figure out, come to find out the motor bearings were shot, changing the gyro out would not have helped at all. if anything the extra vibes would have worn perectly good parts out much sooner.

fix the heli

not the gyro

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04-09-2010 01:56 AM  8 years agoPost 14
aceisback

rrApprentice

Terre Haute, IN

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What vibrations and what Gyro problems are we talking about? Never had a vibration/gyro issue with any of my helis, even back when gyros first came out.

Maybe we don't need a gyro that is not susceptible to vibration, we just need better heli designs to totally eliminate any and all vibrations. Fix the source of the vibration, not the sensor.

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04-09-2010 01:56 AM  8 years agoPost 15
QuantumPSI

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Atlanta, GA

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LOL, love it! I actually wondered about this a while ago, but from what I've been seeing in this hobby, new products seem to be made without the customers input. LOL, when was the last time you saw JR or Futaba ask us what features we want to see on their new radio? LOL, instead, we must wait and hope that the next iteration has what we ultimately want for a reasonable price. I dunno, what Rock has presented would be great! Will they do it? seriously doubt it...

...now where was I, dh/dt = BS-dx/dt
I will fly you forever... till earth do us part

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04-09-2010 02:30 AM  8 years agoPost 16
ShuRugal

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Killeen, TX

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They are designed to sense and counteract angular movement, not vibration.
yes, and they do that by sensing the movement of a vibrating part... if you vibrate a vibrating part, it will vibrate differently than if it were not vibrating...

AMA 700159

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04-09-2010 02:31 AM  8 years agoPost 17
LonR

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Macomb,Mi

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aceisback
What vibrations and what Gyro problems are we talking about? Never had a vibration/gyro issue with any of my helis
+1 on that,never had any problems from vibration with any of my nitros.Tails are rock solid in every way and have zero drift.I don't even use gyro tape,double sided sticky tape only .

600LE,OS55,OS PowerBoost pipe,Align 610's,Spartan

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04-09-2010 02:33 AM  8 years agoPost 18
Eco8gator

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Palm Beach, FL

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Man you guys are tough.

Here is the deal. A motion sensing sensor sees vibration. The best the gyro mfg's can do is provide the best analog and digital filtering possible to remove MOST of the noise yet keep the signal sensative enough keep the tail still(ie not deaden the signal so much its useless).

Most issues Ive ever seen are builder related. If your too lazy to do the work to make your heli as smooth as possible then dont be surprised you see some wags here and there.

ALL inertial(motion sensing) sensor packages are affected by vibration.

So dont ask designers of the electronics make something they cant really do. Ask the guys who make the sensors to make the magic sensor

Why not ask the heli mfg's to provide vibration isolated electronics mounts similar to those used on the Blitz.

There is lots that still can be done with out asking for the impossible and to get the desired result(a working tail or cyclic for the fbl guys).

C

Xera Motors
ProBar
Minicopter
Thunder Power

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04-09-2010 02:36 AM  8 years agoPost 19
LaurenceGough

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UK

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All helis vibrate differently, making the "ideal" padding for one heli, not so ideal for the next.

All my and other's helis I've set up and flown (all electric) have had 0 issues with any semi decent gyro.

I believe the Spartan DS760 gyro is one of the best for vibrations, and perhaps some CSM gyros, but have no personal experience with the higher end of them. They have digital filters to help eliminate the vibe effects.

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04-09-2010 02:37 AM  8 years agoPost 20
Super Phreek

rrVeteran

Sunny Lancaster, California

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Chances are the new gyros coming on the market are due to obsolescence. The manufacturer of the sensors are the ones doing the "updates" forcing all of the first level consumers (Futaba and such) to change there product line. When this happens, that is when Futaba adds there updates ie no amp.

When looking into the actual sensor, I found there was only one manufacturer at the time when the 401, 601, and the 502. Interestingly, the sensor directly from the manufacture was pushing 300 bucks. Futaba must buy a bunch of these things to keep the price down. Eventually those stocks will depleted then will be replaced.

As for the actual gyros, the sensor themselves use vibration to actually work. So, the actual issues that people have depend on the frequency of the vibration from the heli. Example would be an intermittent low frequency bursts from a poor running engine or the higher frequency vibration from a rotating fan; depending on the nature of the vibration, the gyro will react accordingly, specifically the lower freq of a poor running engine. Adding to the engine running scenario, you could add sudden rpm changes causing a problem also which is likely the cause of tail drift.

Since these are coriolis effect gyros, the actual sensor needs to be rotated for anything to be measured. You could move the sensor side to side and nothing will happen, but rotate it the action starts. Because of this, the gyro sensor has good performance in high vibration areas. Since rotation is measured, this is why people recommend placing the sensor as close to the main-shaft as possible; to reduce parallax error.

To meet the needs of Rock, one will have to devise a very elegant mathematical operation to predict these vibrations, or add a feedback loop so the controller could ignore all of the erroneous changes. We all love the wires we have, now lets increase that so we could have sensors all over the heli so the gyro can counter all errors.

Although I do not feel vibration is a huge issue with these things.

Derek

Is that a 6s 5000 in your pocket,
or are you just happy to see me?

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