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HomeAircraftHelicopterMain Discussion › Why do lipo chargers balance a pack? that is so dumb...
04-08-2010 02:01 AM  8 years agoPost 61
Terrabit

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Seattle, WA - USA

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Shoot! I've started a half dozen threads in a day! And, when I'm obsessed with something, I have a damn hard time putting it down. Has that happened here on RR? Oh hell yeah! BUT - I usually don't post three and four follow on post-after-posts.

On that count, my friend, you got me beat!

Grats!

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04-08-2010 03:44 AM  8 years agoPost 62
jackheli

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Vancouver - Canada

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from what i understand, the old Thunderpower 1010 charger with its corresponding balancer, charge through the balance connector. this has been around for quite a while..
That is not absolutely how the old 1010 works.

It charges through the discharge connector while the balancer discharges cells that have a higher voltage in order to equalize the pack. That is when the lights on the balancer blink: it is applying a load to the cell.

So the charger charges and at the same time on the other side the balancer discharges. One works against the other...If that is not dumb I don't know what is.

It's easy to find an excuse to do wrong. Hard is not to find an excuse to do right.

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04-08-2010 04:10 AM  8 years agoPost 63
cudaboy_71

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sacramento, ca, u.s.

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sounds like a government contract.

i was working down at JSC some years ago. I was not in HVAC, but i had to go underground for some wiring and came across what i later learned to be a completely typical temperature control system for mission-sensitive equipment:

it had both A/C and heat running full bore 24/7. the way the temperature was regulated was through a complex series of butterfly valves that allowed one or the other to pump into the room.

this did allow for tighter temperature control (or so i was told), but sheesh, you'd think a PID and a set of relays would be just as effective. what do i know, i wasnt the engineer.

but, talk about fighting one another.

if it ain't broke, break it.

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04-08-2010 04:16 AM  8 years agoPost 64
PC12DRVR

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USA

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Edit nevermind

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04-08-2010 02:03 PM  8 years agoPost 65
hootowl

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Garnet Valley, Pa.

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You know if they initially came out with discrete channel chargers later on they would probably have come up with the current solutions to bring the cost down. I don't see the big improvement anyway.

Wolves don't lose sleep over the opinions of sheep

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04-08-2010 05:27 PM  8 years agoPost 66
jackheli

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Vancouver - Canada

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I don't see the big improvement anyway.
Wait until you get a pack that is out of balance...

It's easy to find an excuse to do wrong. Hard is not to find an excuse to do right.

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04-08-2010 05:57 PM  8 years agoPost 67
ChristianM

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Oslo, Norway

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Discrete channel charger are available
Discrete channel charger have been available for quite some time. Personally I am using the "Align Intelligent Balance Charger RCC-6CX". It is a 100 watt unit charging up to 6S power by 100 to 240 AC. Just set the charging amp (up to 4 amps) and plug in up to two batteries through their balancing plug which will be charged sequentially. It will display the voltage and charge current per cell.

Now 4 amps is a bit low if you a charging 5000 mAh packs but as has been mentioned it is the balancing plug which is the limiting factor. This means that using heavier gauge wire will not help as it is the balancing plug which is the limiting factor. So if you want to charge with higher currents through the balancing plug then a new heavier type of balancing plug will have to be used which there currently is no industry standard for and no charging equipment to plug it into.

Now if you want to charge with higher currents the Thunder Power TP-1010 will do that while balancing (as has been mentioned before) and the efficiency loss due to the loss from the balancer is negligible. So I guess I don't see that there is a huge "gap" in our industry when
it comes to charging while balancing as there are solutions out there that works just fine.

Christian

Burn fuel, be happy

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04-08-2010 06:14 PM  8 years agoPost 68
hootowl

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Garnet Valley, Pa.

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Wait until you get a pack that is out of balance...
Explain? I thought my FMA charger deals with this by bringing each cell individually to equal voltages AS it's charging then in the end does a "fine tune" balance.

Wolves don't lose sleep over the opinions of sheep

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04-08-2010 06:24 PM  8 years agoPost 69
jackheli

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Vancouver - Canada

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Explain?
If the pack is way out of balance the charger will charge the pack very slowly or refuse to charge the pack at all. Each charger has its own setting for that, which in general is 0.2V difference between cells. It also depends on the smartness of the software in the charger (that is why it is sooo dumb...)

If the pack is way out of balance one needs to guarantee that at any given time the difference in voltage from the lowest charged cell to the highest will not trigger the protection. In order to do that charging is normally done at a VERY low current (normally 300mA) which is enough to allow the balancer to load the highest cell and hold its voltage in check while the others catch up at a 300mA rate.

So if your packs are iffy, the balancing method works really poorly, no matter how smart the software is.

On the other hand, if charging through the balancing connector, the individual chargers wouldn't care less about what the voltage on the other cells are. They just need to top their individual cells to 4.2v and that's it. A very easy program to accomplish.

It's easy to find an excuse to do wrong. Hard is not to find an excuse to do right.

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04-08-2010 10:19 PM  8 years agoPost 70
MutantGarage

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Texas, USA

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A charger could bulk charge through the ESC leads and balance through the smaller balance leads in 1 cycle. It'd just take a little more programming on the controller. As a LiPo reaches full charge, the current goes way down, the balance leads are plenty thick for that.
The controller circuit would need to be able to independently shunt fully charged cells to keep a high charge rate on a severely unbalanced battery, but at that point, do you really want to keep using that defective pack?
If there was an isolated buck-boost switching converter on each cell, then a smart controller could 'steal' current from charged cells to pass through less charged cells.

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04-08-2010 11:09 PM  8 years agoPost 71
jackheli

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Vancouver - Canada

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but at that point, do you really want to keep using that defective pack?
I have 6 x 6s 4900mAH 20 and 25C Flight Power packs that have only about 40 charges on each.

They are horrible to fly, not being capable to hold rotor speed at all. Must be close to 5C than 20~25C!

I paid over $300 a pop...!!!

No sir, I will fly them and get my $$$ worth.

What I am doing is that I am using two in parallel to power my scale helis.

This way I don't feel like I have been ripped off by Flight Power (which I will never buy again from, BTW...)

It's easy to find an excuse to do wrong. Hard is not to find an excuse to do right.

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04-09-2010 12:16 AM  8 years agoPost 72
hootowl

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Garnet Valley, Pa.

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Jack,

Are you familiar with the FMA line of chargers?

Wolves don't lose sleep over the opinions of sheep

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04-09-2010 12:28 AM  8 years agoPost 73
zaw

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Lebanon, NH - USA

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There is NO electrical way to charge all cells at same time on the way how the balance plugs are wired. You can only charge thru blance plug is only one cell at a time. That how ALL Balance Charger balance their packs one cell at a time.

CellPro charge use Blance plug to charge, when it does it uses the black and red lead to charge like every other charger. Open it up and there is only One charger chip and FETs for it.

ಠ_ಠ HBK2 built with inexpensive parts! ٩๏̯͡๏)۶ Gaui425

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04-09-2010 02:01 AM  8 years agoPost 74
aceisback

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Terre Haute, IN

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There is NO electrical way to charge all cells at same time on the way how the balance plugs are wired.
Sure you can, look at how a lipo is wired up, I've done it with some test circuitry I was working on. Look at the diagram I posted earlier. It is just the same as measuring the individual cell voltages thru the balance adapter. The balance adapter is a tap for each individual cell if wired correctly and if you know what wire goes to which terminal of a cell, you can charge through it.

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04-09-2010 02:07 AM  8 years agoPost 75
aceisback

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Terre Haute, IN

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Here is one example of a charger for individual cells withing a pack:

http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20575

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04-09-2010 03:42 AM  8 years agoPost 76
hootowl

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Garnet Valley, Pa.

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For some reason I don't think anyone here knows what they are talking about.

Flame suit on.

Wolves don't lose sleep over the opinions of sheep

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04-09-2010 04:20 AM  8 years agoPost 77
aceisback

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Terre Haute, IN

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For some reason I don't think anyone here knows what they are talking about.
Do you know something we don't?

Enlighten us...

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04-09-2010 04:37 AM  8 years agoPost 78
fast400

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shelby twp. michigan

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my two cheap chargers wont even charge without the balance plug hooked up.
something else thats weird, it does`nt matter if i balance at 1c-2.2a or 2c-4.4a`s it still takes atleast a hour per battery.
there was a 2 minute difference in charge times.
i tried a fast charge the other day, my battery was way out of balance.
i`m sure its my cheap chargers, but its all i got.

crash`s come easy patience`s doesnt

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04-09-2010 04:51 AM  8 years agoPost 79
aceisback

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Terre Haute, IN

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Fast400,

If your chargers are working and your batteries are charging properly, I wouldn't worry too much about the charge times. At least you won't kill your batteries by improper charging. You don't have to expensive chargers to properly charge these things. I think that was kind of the reasoning for this thread. We need simple, safe, inexpensive means of charging our batteries properly.

What chargers are you using anyway ? Maybe someone will have some tips for making them charge faster.

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04-09-2010 05:18 PM  8 years agoPost 80
fast400

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shelby twp. michigan

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i have one thunder t6 from hobbypartz.com, and one imax b6 off fleebay.
i see people talking all the time about how they are chargeing 3s batteries in like 30 minutes, i tend not to believe this.
now matter how i set my charges, it takes atleast a hour.
now if you only use say 5 or 6 hundred mAh`s out of a 2200mAh battery, then i could see a 30 minute charge time.
but if you are doing the 80% rule, i cant see a 30 minute charge.

crash`s come easy patience`s doesnt

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HomeAircraftHelicopterMain Discussion › Why do lipo chargers balance a pack? that is so dumb...
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