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HomeAircraftHelicopterMain Discussion › Mechanical mixing helicopters
03-10-2010 12:58 AM  8 years agoPost 1
amstel78

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Shohola, PA

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Just curious, what other mechanical-mix collective helicopters are available on the market apart from the TT Raptors?

I've been out of the hobby for 10 years, and there are so many players and options now that it's mind boggling. Back in the day, there was TT, Century, Hirobo, and JR. That's all I could remember.

73 de James K2QI

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03-10-2010 02:42 AM  8 years agoPost 2
rcmadness

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Midland, Texas - USA

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Bergen makes a mechanical mix gasser, not sure about there nitro birds.

Trex-250-450se-450pro-500esp-600nitro-Predator Gasser

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03-10-2010 03:12 AM  8 years agoPost 3
ncarbon

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Kalispell Montana

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Hirobo makes the SDX in either format, as well the EVO 90.

Ned

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03-10-2010 03:26 AM  8 years agoPost 4
JRjoe

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Jonesville , IN USA #1

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TT Rappy is still MCPM... Sorry but it's kinda old school these day.

But, nothing wrong with a good old Rappy, just have fun...

Align 600N is the standard these days(ccpm)...Just My Opinion...


JRjoe.....
Indoor plumbing??? No, we don't need that!!!

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03-10-2010 05:20 AM  8 years agoPost 5
Bouchah

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Willow Spring, N. Carolina USA

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Ive been looking into picking up a Hirobo SDX, I was all set on the SWM(CCPM) version because that seems to be the modern trend, the better setup if you will. After reading what Aaron29 had to say about the pros & cons of both versions. I think Im going to stick with the HPM(MECHANICAL MIXING). Im no hotdogger by any means, stall turns, loops & rolls only so far. So I dont think a little less pop & a little bit of interaction will make a difference to me.
I found this quote by Aaron29 to be pretty interesting.
Aaron29
Elite Veteran
Location: Bossier City, LA

My Posts This: Topic Forum Very cool.

Oh and to answer the question, HPM is not necessarily for beginners.

Essentially, SWM is eCCPM, and HPM is mechanical mix. I've done a lot of posting on the pros and cons of each. Don't let anyone tell you one is superior to the other for all uses. It's like front or rear wheel drive. Both work, each does something better than the other. Each has it's strong and weak points.

HPM PROS:

No need for expensive or matched servos, can have different servo types on each control if desired without ill effect

easier to setup

hirobo HPM models are essentially interaction-free, no cyclic to collective interaction, no cyclic to cyclic interaction, no collective to cyclic interaction

can 3D with the best of them with only the tiniest loss in collective speed.

If you love mechanical engineering, they are something to admire.

If you are on a budget, go with HPM. They tolerate stretching servo life better, and you can get away with a good bearing/digital servo (some of which run 50 bucks or so).

HPM CONS: A VERY slight degradation in collective "pop." Watch some videos to get an idea. Not to say that you can't push a HPM to limits. It will piroflip on the deck with the best of them. Honestly unless you are better than 97% of flyers the loss of pop won't make much difference, and by then you'll be so good you can make anything fly well.

The other con is the requirement for a stronger collective servo.

SWM PROS: Hirobo's eCCPM is great, you will hardly notice the minor interactions that remain. Any that do remain will be due to servos, not the heli. This is not universal with eCCPM. Hirobo really got this one right.

SWM is noticeably quicker on cyclic/collective movements as there is more power to the swashplate with lower control motions.

Tail servo is up front. This is obviously not a universal eCCPM pro as some eCCPM helis have it out back, but with Hirobo that's the way the SWM designs are and they don't have it with HPM.

SWM CONS: It's eCCPM and suffers from everything that ECCPM helis suffer from. As the servos wear, you will need to occasionally adjust the travels and mixes to reoptimize the setup. Even then, through slop and potentiometer aging, they will create more and more interaction until you need to replace the servo, and then usually if you replace only one you get a non-optimal setup. Most people replace three at a time to avoid that. Although Hirobo did an awesome job, eCCPM will always only be as good as the servos that drive it. So there you have your con, SWM will need nice servos that need more frequent replacement. (I like to have an HPM bird to put "slightly" older servos from my SWM bird into. HPM tolerates mixes of servos well and can last more than a season on servos that are not eCCPM optimal)

And as good as Hirobo did, servo potentiometer technology still creates cyclic to cyclic interactions, or collective to cyclic, or cyclic to collective. Without an expensive radio these interactions will remain. With an expensive radio you can get pretty close to an HPM quality setup. If you aren't picky, you won't care. If you desire a high degree of precision, these interactions might be a little annoying. I'm a perfectionist and have to climb out of character to accept it. I have to tell myself that the setup is just fine even though I haven't checked it in a few gallons. And I know when I check it I will have to adjust an ATV here or there.

Honestly, the interaction even when present is hard to notice in flight as the air and randomness of wind, etc, creates almost as many unwanted heli motions. It's just that knowing that it's there causes me to go OCD. FAI gurus will probably get a little miffed at the fact that it will not maintain a contest setup without continual mothering. 3D guys will still need to tend to their setup, but can get away with a lot more negligence.

***********
In the end, I don't think you can go wrong with either one. You can 3D either one. You can be precise with either one (assuming you have a nice radio for eCCPM interaction).

-Aaron
NEW 03-09-2010 03:33 AM PROFILE PM EMAIL POSTS BUDDY IGNORE ONLINE Attn: RR

Aaron29
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Location: Bossier City, LA

My Posts This: Topic Forum Oh and neither is easier to fly (assuming both have been setup well).

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03-10-2010 06:29 AM  8 years agoPost 6
JRjoe

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Jonesville , IN USA #1

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above Quote
wow!!!

long but true.....get what you want or fly what you have....

Just go have fun!!!


JRjoe.....
Indoor plumbing??? No, we don't need that!!!

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03-10-2010 11:08 AM  8 years agoPost 7
amstel78

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Shohola, PA

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Bouchah:

Thanks for the quote; definitely a nice read. I've always liked HPM based heli's - I guess that's what I grew up with, plus I've always enjoyed the engineering that went into an HPM design.

The reason I posted this question is it seems just about every new helicopter with the exception of the offerings from TT are eCCPM. I went back to a Raptor 30 and will probably pick up a Raptor 90 simply because I like the HPM design better.

I'm no hotdog pilot either, and will probably never be able to outfly a Raptor 90's capabilities.

73 de James K2QI

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03-10-2010 12:37 PM  8 years agoPost 8
Bouchah

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Willow Spring, N. Carolina USA

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Are raptor parts available to you locally or do you have to mail order? By me, well with in 50 miles, there are Align parts from the 250 thru the 700, and a shop is starting to carry the Compass line with a bunch of spares. I fly Hirobo, Shuttle ZXX and Freya X-Spec, its mail order for me. Back when I started, the LHS had two walls of helicopters and parts, one was Hirobo the other was Kyosho. Those were the days!

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03-10-2010 12:42 PM  8 years agoPost 9
Sillyness

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Little Rock AR

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mCCPM (HPM) should have LESS interaction than eCCPM, not more.

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03-10-2010 02:13 PM  8 years agoPost 10
amstel78

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Shohola, PA

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Bouchah:

To be honest, I've just gotten back into the hobby and haven't really investigated any of the local hobby stores in my area. Everything I've purchased recently has been via mail order from the big name stores, ala Heliproz, AMain, Tower, and Heli-World.

Back when I flew a Raptor V1 and Hirobo Shuttle 10 years ago in Florida, most of the LHS stocked Raptor and Hirobo parts, so that was never a concern.

Anyway, I do feel that Raptor parts are quite easy to source online, so I'm not worried. I'll only become concerned if TT decides to quit production on certain models, and then I'll probably move over to another brand. I do have a soft spot left in my heart for Hirobo, as that was the first brand I ever owned.

73 de James K2QI

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03-10-2010 03:40 PM  8 years agoPost 11
Bouchah

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Willow Spring, N. Carolina USA

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I think I got confused about the interaction. Again
mCCPM (HPM) should have LESS interaction than eCCPM, not more.
Is that true for all mCCPM machines or just Hirobo as stated below?
hirobo HPM models are essentially interaction-free, no cyclic to collective interaction, no cyclic to cyclic interaction, no collective to cyclic interaction

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03-10-2010 04:20 PM  8 years agoPost 12
fla heli boy

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cape coral, florida

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Don't forget the old X Cel's. They worked pretty good with a mech. mix.

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03-10-2010 06:24 PM  8 years agoPost 13
Zaneman007

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Texas - USA

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Mechanical mix has no interaction. There are three servos, one for pitch, one for aileron, and one for elevator. The work independently of the other two. (i.e. to change the pitch on mechanical mix, only one servo moves.)

On eCCPM, all three servos act as one for changes in pitch, aileron and elevator. Thus, they act in unison. If one servo travels at a different rate than the others,interaction, and if the endpoints are not the same on all three servos, interaction. (i.e. to change the pitch on an eCCPM all three servos move, hopefully at the same rate and distance, else...... .)

Old Guys Rule!

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03-10-2010 06:34 PM  8 years agoPost 14
fla heli boy

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cape coral, florida

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that's why I always wondered why the bid deal with E-mix. I realize you're lessening the load on your servos, allowing them to move faster, but other than that....??? Just always wondered.

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03-10-2010 06:49 PM  8 years agoPost 15
Bouchah

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Willow Spring, N. Carolina USA

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that's why I always wondered why the bid deal with E-mix. I realize you're lessening the load on your servos, allowing them to move faster, but other than that....??? Just always wondered.
If its on a Trex then it has to be better!......Right? No, Im just kidding, I dont know when exactly eCCPM became the norm, now it just seems that is the way of the times. It made me laugh when I read about the Hirobo SDX SWM version has the tail servo up front in the servo tray, like this has never been done before. From what I remember, that is where tail servos were when I started in this hobby. I think Im going to stick with mCCPM/HPM birds, then in a few years from now maybe the Szabo brothers will have the idea that mechanically mixed birds are better and I will be hip to the hobby for a few years.

For the record, I have 2 Hirobos, no Trex's (my son has a Trex 450 though)

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