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Home✈️Aircraft🚁HelicopterGasser Model RC HelicoptersOther › Questions on Coleman fuel, oil and oil%
02-24-2010 03:52 PM  10 years ago
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Chris Herzog

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Covington, La. USA

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Questions on Coleman fuel, oil and oil%
Guys,

I just worked a deal out with a friend of mine and I'm getting a new heli from him with a Zenoah in it. This will be my first venture with a gas heli but I have been racing rc boats all around the country from CA to FL for the last 15 years with a Zenoah, so I'm familiar with the Zenoah engine.

In the boats we raise the exhaust timing and do a bunch of port work. We also raise the compression a bunch among a number of other things just to give you all a little insight about our motors. Our Zenoahs operate between15,000 and 18,000rpms and the motors are putting out anywhere from 5 to 6hp. We also race these motors stock out of the box with and without a tuned pipe. From day one I have only run VP C-12 in my engines, this is race gas designed for 2 strokes. It's a high octane fuel that will tend to make the engines run hot. Running pump gas (87 octane) the engines will run much cooler. Anyway, I mix my fuel with 8oz of Klotz to one gallon of C-12 and have been doing this for almost the entire time I have races gas boats. The first few years we ran 6oz to 1 gallon with the peanut motor but when the 260’s came out we had to add oil to keep the pistons from sticking.

This heli that I’m getting will be used it for a camera ship only. I plan on using Coleman fuel or white gas in it because I don’t want to transport pump gas inside my car and have the gas smell. I have read on here (RR) that a lot of guys are running their gas helis with Amsoil oil. Has anyone ever run Klotz and if so what are the proz and cons between Amsoil and Klotz. Also am I correct in saying that a number of guys are running 2.5oz of Amsoil to one gallon of fuel in their helis? Man that makes me nervous if that is correct!

Finally, is there anything I need to know that I might be overlooking with a gas chopper. I’ve been flying helis now for over 4 years and can not tell you how many helis that I have owned in this time 15 or 20 maybe, so I can set-up and fly a nitro bird with no problem. I easily burn a gallon of 30% every weekend. I know that the head speed on a gasser is quite slower and the T-curve is a bit different but any other info you might be able to share will be helpful.

Thanks,
C Herzog
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02-24-2010 04:55 PM  10 years ago
BeltFedBrowning

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Kansas City

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I have run my gas helis on gas and Coleman. I get nervous about running AmsOil at such a low ratio too. I mix my AmsOil with gas or Coleman at 3.5 ounces per gallon and they run great. I have had trouble getting the AmsOil and I have been considering switching to the Klotz. I too would like to hear what you guys think about Klotz.
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02-24-2010 05:36 PM  10 years ago
rbort

rrProfessor

Franklin, MA - USA

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Gas
Sure you can run coleman in the gas helis, alot of folks do it here to avoid the smell issues. I personally run gas because I transport my models in a pickup truck and its not an issue.

In any case, people have run anywhere from 2oz of Amsoil to about 3.5oz. That translates to 64:1 down to 35:1. I'm running it at about 40:1 erring on the richer side down to 36:1, in that range.

Recently I got some Penzoil Marine oil and will be running that to start about 28:1 as its habitually run around 25:1.

Gas helicopters don't run nearly as fast as boats, so you most likely won't need as much oil as you do with all that speed and heat. With that being said, more oil is helpful with more heat to protect your motor, but if you run it cool you can get away with less oil. Its a balance of how much heat protection you want to personally put in there.

Never tried Klotz so can't comment on that, you might want to ask Hanson about that, as he uses it and can give you his thoughts about it.

Gas helicopters are setup differently than nitros. Lower throttle curves to get off the ground and fly, lower head speeds, and much less fuel burn at a 10th of the cost per gallon. Do a search here there is alot of posts on that explaining throttle curves and many other things, its a wealth of information.

-=>Raja.
MA 1005 Hanson 2703D, 4400 flts
Spectra 27 3DMax, 3460 flts
Whiplash V1-2 Hanson 300, 1995 flts
Whiplash V2 Hanson 300, 923 flts
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02-25-2010 01:42 AM  10 years ago
jschenck

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La Vista, NE.

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Something that has really helped me with learning gasser heli tuning is an IR temp gun. Just helps me get in the ball park. Also as far as headspeed I think it depends on the heli and how it's geared. For example I think it's not unusual for a Predator to run 1900 on the head which is the same that I shoot for on my Trex-700 running the same blades.
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02-25-2010 01:50 AM  10 years ago
Chris Herzog

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Covington, La. USA

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This will be a Vario and I believe he told me that it has 810's or 890's on it. It's one or the other I don't remember. I was thinking about the heli and what I needed to get for it when he mentioned the blades. I want to say he told me it was turning about 1300 to 1500 or in that ball park anyway.

Chris
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02-25-2010 02:04 AM  10 years ago
jschenck

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La Vista, NE.

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Yea, the GSR I've flown had 820mm blades IIRC and we were in the 1500 RPM give or take. It has an 8.0 gear ratio. For AP work it's normal to run them with bigger sticks and run it all slower to help minimize high speed vibrations. The JR blades were even semi-symetrical and have washout built into the blades. My 1900 RPM Predator is meant for sport flying and uses the same 3D blades as my Trex-700.
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02-25-2010 02:20 AM  10 years ago
Chris Herzog

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Covington, La. USA

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My friend told me the same thing. He bought this heli new and set it up for AP but never did anything with it. I have a 600E that I was going to set up for AP but then this came along so things have changed... Anyone need/want a T-Rex 600? LOL! I still have a long way to go and I'm sure a bunch of questions along the way concerning gas helis, so stay tuned.

Chris
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02-25-2010 03:20 AM  10 years ago
Justin Stuart (RIP)

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Plano, Texas

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If you don't want to run Coleman fuel but don't like gasoline, keep in mind that they make some unleaded race fuel (such as Sunoco) which has an octane level of 93 to 96, doesn't smell like gasoline, and doesn't go bad over time.Avant RC
Scorpion Power Systems
Thunder Power RC
Kontronik Drives
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02-25-2010 03:23 AM  10 years ago
Chris Herzog

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Covington, La. USA

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Thanks for the tip. I was sponcered a few years back and that was the fuel I ran with that team.

Chris
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02-25-2010 03:28 AM  10 years ago
rc3po

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Danville, Illinois

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Hmmm.. Don't know if that race fuel would be avail around here.. No smell would be nice.. 93 Octane ???

Is the Coleman/Gasoline easily interchangable? Can you readily switch between the two?
Happay Happay Happay...
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02-25-2010 03:28 AM  10 years ago
helicenter

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Winter Haven Fl.

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engine
Chris

If you are running a Vario with 810 blades you need to keep the head speed under 1200, with a 9-1 gear ratio the RC Zenoah will be running about 10,000 rpm, try it you will like it.

Doug
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02-25-2010 03:30 AM  10 years ago
helicenter

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Winter Haven Fl.

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fuel
Chris
Also I have been running either Colman or reg gasoline with Amsoil at a ratio of 64-1 with good results.

Doug
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02-25-2010 03:41 AM  10 years ago
Toxic Al

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chuluota, Fl

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one thing to mention. being in the motorcycle industry isee all the problems we are having with ethanol in the gas. the fuel does not last more then a few weeks before going bad and it is not consistant. I have been testing coleman with good results and it is very consistant from batch to batch.Peace, Al
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02-25-2010 03:49 AM  10 years ago
Chris Herzog

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Covington, La. USA

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Thanks guys for all the input.

For you guys that don't know Toxic Al...He is one heck of a motor guy. I know Al from the boat seen and have raced againt many many motors that he has modded and sold to guys all across the country. If any of you have motor questions...he is one of the best in the business to talk to!

Glad to know your fooling with Helis Al!!!

Thanks,
C Herzog
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02-25-2010 04:08 AM  10 years ago
Toxic Al

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chuluota, Fl

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Thanks chris, that means alot. both of us started in the boat world and while I was a motor guy Chris was a boat manufacturer the produced one the nastiest mono hulls you could buy. My Buddy Robert still has the Hurricane you set up for him 4 or 5 years ago and still whips much behind. Chris is a genuine good guy for this hobby. much respect . Peace, Al
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02-25-2010 04:13 AM  10 years ago
jschenck

rrProfessor

La Vista, NE.

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so maybe you boat guys can answer a question I've wondered about. If a PUM can be made to run at 18k, why can't we get a PUH to run reliably at 15k?
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02-25-2010 04:21 AM  10 years ago
Toxic Al

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chuluota, Fl

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It is not they can't run reliably I have tested motors at that rpm before it is just not usable and vibrations are harder to get rid. In boats power and rpm are king but the torque at that rpm is not as good. the mod 231(mine) likes between 12500 to 13500. it will rev past but the torque drops off. Gearing is also an issue for some brands of choppers. the ma spectra when my engine was used it was fixed at 7.14 or 5 not sure but limiting your rev range in the motor . hope this helps. Peace, Al
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02-25-2010 04:23 AM  10 years ago
Chris Herzog

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Covington, La. USA

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I don't know why you can't.

What's been done to the motor and what's it doing?

C Herzog
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02-25-2010 04:31 AM  10 years ago
jschenck

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La Vista, NE.

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I know the normally accepted limit is 12.5k for our PUH's with some pushing them to 13, maybe 13.5k. I suppose an FG boat frame in water is a better environment for absorbing HS vibs than a CF heli frame.
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02-25-2010 04:35 AM  10 years ago
Chris Herzog

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Covington, La. USA

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Al is right... I still have that race mentality in my head and I forget about the vibrations as well as the problems this causes. With the boats the motors are rubber mounted. We also run tune pipes in the boats and that alone make a huge different in performance.

I still see no reason why you can't get the heli motor to make more power and turn higher rpms just not sure if it's useable. My buddy did a heli motor for a guy in AL and it made a world of different in the performance of the motor. Back then I was not interested in gas so I did not stay in touch with the guy. The last time I saw him was at a fun fly and he had an elec heli so we did not talk about the gas bird.

C Herzog
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