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HomeAircraftHelicopterHelicopter Main Discussion › The best tail setup
02-02-2010 12:41 AM  8 years agoPost 1
Tohme

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Sao Paulo - Brazil

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What´s the best tail setup?
With the old gyros I used to keep the tail pitch slider with a little offset to compensate the engine torque.
With new gyros, after the GY 401, I always keep at the center.
What´s the best setup for the new heading hold gyros? Offset or center?

Thanks
Marcelo

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02-02-2010 02:20 AM  8 years agoPost 2
RaptorMan23

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Sioux City, IA

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Offset, you should see 4.5mm of tail shaft between the slider and tail case, that is your center

This is on a raptor though, what kind of heli are we talking here?

If you only have to bend over once to pick it up it's a good landing.

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02-02-2010 11:09 AM  8 years agoPost 3
Tohme

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Sao Paulo - Brazil

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I´m talking about the T-Rex 600 Nitro Ltd because the manual says to keep the slider at the center. I think they are assuming I will use the Align GP 750 gyro.
But is a dout about the best setup with all new generation gyros. They work at the same way?

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02-02-2010 11:54 AM  8 years agoPost 4
FenwayRick

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Smyrna, De

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With CY gyros you just center them, but I think their is a tad bit more to setting up a gyro than to just center the pitch slider.

If you need more help I have something a friend had written up that will help out.

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02-02-2010 06:54 PM  8 years agoPost 5
RcNutTz

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Chicago Illinois USA

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I got a great tip of another site pull the tail control rod one way till it stops then use a marker and mark it next to a guide then do the other site all you have to do then is center the two marks

Works Great! makes things simple when it come to adjusting and centering every thing hope this helps

Edit: I plug the rudder servo directly in the receiver to center it and set up before I plug the gyro in, I done this on my 600n

yes dear the hobby shop again

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02-02-2010 08:24 PM  8 years agoPost 6
Andy from Sandy

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Bedfordshire, UK

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I go by the manufacturers' instructions. If they indicate to set the model to fly hands off in rate mode then that is what I do.

Futaba GY401, CSM SL720 and Spartan DS760 to name but three point this out as the best way to setup the tail / gyro.

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02-02-2010 09:08 PM  8 years agoPost 7
outhouse

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auburn ca

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to answer your question correctly

it depends on the gyro.

some use a nice center set up like a 401 or gp750

others require a no drift set up rate mode that will put them off center

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02-02-2010 09:17 PM  8 years agoPost 8
ShuRugal

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Killeen, TX

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also will vary with heli mechanics, on my nexus, for example, center position on the slider results in no drift at a hover in rate mode.

AMA 700159

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02-02-2010 09:21 PM  8 years agoPost 9
Tohme

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Sao Paulo - Brazil

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If you need more help I have something a friend had written up that will help out.
Thanks for the help
I got a great tip of another site pull the tail control rod one way till it stops then use a marker and mark it next to a guide then do the other site all you have to do then is center the two marks
Great idea!!

Then you think I can setup the new gyros like GY401,GY611,GY520, JR770D, GP750 and GP780 the same way, keeping the slider at the center?
I´m asking because when I bought my first GY401, some time ago, I tried the setup 2 ways: center and offset. I didn´t feel any difference flying with the center setup, but a friend tell me he like to use the offset setup.
I think I will keep the pitch slider at the center!!

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02-03-2010 02:22 AM  8 years agoPost 10
jsenicka

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Eagle River, WI

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I am one of those new guys that never flew rate mode, and honestly never set up a heli to not drift in rate mode. For that matter, I don't think I have ever lifted off the ground in rate mode. I set up my linkages to center the slider and let the gyro do its job. Have flown 401 and 611, CSM 720 and LTG6100 gyros. I honestly don't think the gyro cares

Jim Senicka
Team Manager, GrandRC Flight Team

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02-03-2010 02:40 AM  8 years agoPost 11
FenwayRick

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Smyrna, De

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The servo and gyro will only be working overtime if you do not get the mechanical setup close in rate mode, that is if it has a rate mode.

I am not saying it won't fly it just works harder is all.

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02-03-2010 04:16 AM  8 years agoPost 12
jsenicka

rrProfessor

Eagle River, WI

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The servo and gyro will only be working overtime if you do not get the mechanical setup close in rate mode, that is if it has a rate mode.

I am not saying it won't fly it just works harder is all.
Why?
The gyro is an angular motion sensing device. It senses a specific rate and moves the servo to counter it. Whether the servo is at one position or another does not matter, as it does not change current draw, update rate or anything else.
Say for example you are perfectly configured for hover in rate mode. You lift off and the servo does not need to move. Now take same config and change head speed. Or add in 15 knots of wind from the side. The gyro senses movement and counters it. Is it working any harder? No. It is sensing movement and countering it with a servo movement.

At best, a gyro perfectly set up for rate mode needs to "think" slightly less for the second you lift in to hover, assuming no wind change, tuning change, or head speed change. As soon as you change power/pitch, direction the heli is into the wind, flight direction, etc, it is all irrelevant. The gyro has a preprogrammed amount of servo travel available, and a designed in ability to detect rotation and a software algorithm designed to react to rotation by moving the servo. The reaction needed to counter torque, wind and aerodynamic forces changes continuously during flight. How can having center set to work in 1% of the flight regime make any difference? The gyro simply moves the servo as needed to achieve the rotation rate it needs, regardless of what was needed in hover, or two seconds ago

I 100% believe this was urban lore left from the earliest days of HH gyros and has zero to do with modern HH gyros.

Push it further. Imagine I have a gyro that is perfect in hover. As soon as I lift off, I proceed to fly nothing but high power backwards flight. (Watch Jared G fly ). Do you think the gyro says "whew, glad I could handle a no input hover, otherwise there is no way I could take the ass whipping this guy is dealing me:

Not trying to hard to be a smart a**, but a modern day gyro just does not care. It works the same no matter what

Jim Senicka
Team Manager, GrandRC Flight Team

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02-03-2010 04:20 AM  8 years agoPost 13
misfits0311

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Santa Clarita, CA - USA

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Fenway, the CY Mini-G gyro recommend 8 degrees of pitch at center stick to compensate for torque. I'm not sure about the Solid G, but they definately don't recommend centered on the tail shaft for the Mini. FYI.

╘ₒ₲ₒ 6°° ƺƉ ṾЪ∂®

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02-03-2010 04:30 AM  8 years agoPost 14
jsenicka

rrProfessor

Eagle River, WI

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to what Tohme and Raptorman23 posted at beginning.
You are essentially correct. With the slider near center, most modern tail designs have 5 or 6 degrees of counter torque on the blades. If you look at a raptor tail, with the linkage at 90 degrees you have about equal throw for positive and negative torque compensation. With that setup you would also center the arm on the servo.

Jim Senicka
Team Manager, GrandRC Flight Team

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02-03-2010 02:35 PM  8 years agoPost 15
jsenicka

rrProfessor

Eagle River, WI

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Ok, after consultation with an expert I trust, let me modify my statement a bit

You do not want the gyro to have to move the servo significantly off center (using up a portion of its travel) just to hold a steady position.). This would have the end result of making less tail authority available in one direction or the other and ultimately effect the ability of the gyro to give a consistent/predictable pirouette rate in one direction or the other.

My statement on not needing to trim for rate mode assumes that the mechanical setup on the heli places center of servo throw very near to what is needed for hover. The Raptor slider at 4.5mm is a perfect example. This places the tail blades at something near 6 degrees as I recall, and also places the tail bell crank at 90 degrees. If you center the servo arm to match all of this, you have a setup that is pretty close to stable state hover with the servo in center of its travel range.
The TREX 600 and 700 are pretty close to this as well. With tail bell crank at 90 degrees, the transfer lever at rear of frame at 90 and servo at 90 you are real close to a pure mechanical setup. You will need nearly identical servo end points to get throws right and will get very good piro consistency.

So my statement that you do not need to trim out for stable rate mode hover was incorrect in that it left out a major setup step around getting all of the mechanical stuff set so that hover will place the servo near center of its rotation limits. It also does not account for any heli with an odd tail control configuration where placing all thingies and such at 90 degrees will not yield a close to stable hover.

Test flying in rate mode will immediately reveal whether you have any setup issues and is likely a good idea.

Jim Senicka
Team Manager, GrandRC Flight Team

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02-03-2010 03:35 PM  8 years agoPost 16
RRios

rrApprentice

Orlando, Florida United States

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Set your tails mechanically in rate mode to hold steady in a hover. No matter what gyro you use, this will always result in a very stable and rock steady tail, unless you have a bad servo, gyro or excessive vibration.

The mechanical setup will result in approx. a 7 deg. blade angle to the right. This should get you very close, then you can fine tune it to your liking. Once this is set up mechanically, switch it to Heading Hold mode and your tail should be solid, and your expensive tail servo on easy street.

Orlando T.O.R.C.H.S. member
Spektrum DX7 Radio
T-Rex 700N YS91SR Hatori SB19FH
T-Rex 450SE

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02-03-2010 04:36 PM  8 years agoPost 17
FenwayRick

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Smyrna, De

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I should of stated first that I am not an expert or for that matter I was dropped on my head when I was a kid, so forget my stupidity, all I was getting at is that a mechanically sound setup will be better than a not so well setup, that is all.

Also I made a mistake when I said center of pitch slider, I meant center the blades.

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