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HomeAircraftHelicopterFlybarless Rotor Head SystemsOther › Who tried FBL and did not like how the heli flew?
02-02-2010 11:31 PM  8 years agoPost 21
OICU812

rrMaster

Edson, Alberta, Canada

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Kevin few friends gained 45-minute alone on their 600n by converting on my uv electrics I also seen around same gains. Less to turn makes sense really.

...Once upon a time there were Nitros, flybars and frequency pins...

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02-02-2010 11:31 PM  8 years agoPost 22
Metalizer

rrApprentice

Canton, Ohio

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Thanks guys for all the replys!
Well i dont see no realy negative replys to FBL.

(QUOTE)It's not like a co-pilot or helicommand. It's basically just an electronic replacement for the flybar.) ThankYou! That exactly what i dont want.

(QUOTE)What does happen is that you suddenly find that one big variable that used to make brands different (the head) doesn't matter any more.) I think im seeing the light.

Yes! I'm an old Dog, but can learn new tricks. Man! Its just the price$ of learning> LOL

I remember walking out of my LHS with the JR5000/8700 years ago in this tiny little bag thinking, what the $%@$ did i just do. But it was the only gyro worth having. Then out came the 401/9253 for one third the price a few weeks later.

How COOL would it be to break out a Laptop pluged to your heli at the club with all the Airplane flyers. Yes, Airplane flyers. Dont want to say plankers cause i might slip and say plank in front of my little c-150 if you know what i mean.

Back on topic. Its all about the feel and going into that heli Zone. If FBL helps with the feeling of being more connected, I will have to give it a try...

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02-02-2010 11:43 PM  8 years agoPost 23
heli-cuzz

rrElite Veteran

Pittston, Pa. USA

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Flight time
I'd like to add that my flight time went from 8 minutes with flybar to 9+ minutes FBL.
Its all about the feel and going into that heli Zone. If FBL helps with the feeling of being more connected, I will have to give it a try...
You won't regret it. The heli-zone rocks.

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02-03-2010 12:27 AM  8 years agoPost 24
jsenicka

rrProfessor

Eagle River, WI

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Where guys are going to get in to trouble is running cheap servos and sloppy linkages. I was talking about this with Dr. Ben, If you put a good gyro and a crappy servo on a heli you get a poor performing tail, but still manageable. Now try that with sloppy/vague servos or linkages on the main flight controls. I feel the FBL manufactures should be strongly cautioning that you need high quality, fast, precise, coreless metal gear digitals, or even better, higher end brushless servos. Then factor in power. Throw an Align 2-1 on there with a single connector capable of 3 amps, and 3 hungry digitals being worked very hard to replace what would have been a flybar doing most of the stabilization work. We are going to see crashes from electrical failures.

Jim Senicka
Team Manager, GrandRC Flight Team

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02-03-2010 12:45 AM  8 years agoPost 25
Elgreco

rrVeteran

Montreal,QC-Canada

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Throw an Align 2-1 on there with a single connector capable of 3 amps, and 3 hungry digitals being worked very hard to replace what would have been a flybar doing most of the stabilization work. We are going to see crashes from electrical failures.
Can you elaborate a bit on that ? Maybe another thead or PM ?I don't pay too much attention to power issues with my kind of flying, maybe I should start..

I will be converting to FBL on the 700 and I am running 2 in 1 with 610's...
Is that going to be a problem ? Or am I OK for now unless I get different servos ?

Sorry to ask this here but it seems to be an important issue to know with FBL..

Trex 550 V-BAR, Trex 700 V-BAR, N5-os55VBAR, TREX700E V-BAR /X9503

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02-03-2010 01:06 AM  8 years agoPost 26
OICU812

rrMaster

Edson, Alberta, Canada

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Jim very good point for people to understand for sure, regardless of system!

...Once upon a time there were Nitros, flybars and frequency pins...

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02-03-2010 01:40 AM  8 years agoPost 27
jsenicka

rrProfessor

Eagle River, WI

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Not trying to start any major argument here on the 2-in-1, but its single limiting factor is a single servo type connector for power feed. These are rated for 3 Amp continuous. Maybe 5 amps peak for short duration. With your 700 on 610's with a flybar, all you needed to worry about was how hard you were working the servos. And the servos were feeding inputs via the flybar, which was acting as a force multiplier to the head. Now move to FBL, and you have the FBL unit continuously moving the servos to stabilize the heli. And it is doing it all with direct swash to head linkage, so the mechanical advantage is gone. So to over simplify, you have the servos with twice the strain put on them, and being commanded to move at a very high refresh rate by the FBL unit. There is another thread here on estimating current draw as high as 10 amps on a 3G setup. Will you see issues with the power input to the receiver getting melted? Very possible.

I am running AR7100 Powersafe receivers and direct LiFePo packs. This gives me 16 gauge wire feeding power to the receiver backplane.

Jim Senicka
Team Manager, GrandRC Flight Team

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02-03-2010 01:45 AM  8 years agoPost 28
Elgreco

rrVeteran

Montreal,QC-Canada

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Thanks for the reply. Possibly direct me to that thread ?
Would like to learn more.

I do have a perfect regulator but I like the on board glow..

Trex 550 V-BAR, Trex 700 V-BAR, N5-os55VBAR, TREX700E V-BAR /X9503

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02-03-2010 01:58 AM  8 years agoPost 29
jsenicka

rrProfessor

Eagle River, WI

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https://rc.runryder.com/t568115p1/

Jim Senicka
Team Manager, GrandRC Flight Team

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02-03-2010 10:05 AM  8 years agoPost 30
Richardmid1

rrProfessor

Leeds, England

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Blades,

How about Bert Kammerer talking about the lag/disconnected feel?? If you look at his style of flying that is exactly where you will feel the disconnected feel. He also didnt look too happy in his Align FBL video and kept banging on about it feeling different but he never says 'better'. He also says how he didn't really want to fly it much in the video!

The disconnected feel was with the V4.0 by the way.

A friend of mine has just finished setting up his 700 with V-Bar, he finished the trim flight and commented that the tail was a bit too sensitive, I said to turn the end points down or the dual rates, he said he cant without his laptop! What if you dont have a laptop? What if you have a laptop but the battery doesn't last very long? My friend has to plug an inverter into his car and leave the engine running to power his laptop.

Personally I wont spend all that money and even more time to try get the heli to fly like it did when it had a flybar on.

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02-03-2010 06:32 PM  8 years agoPost 31
Leon Brodie

rrApprentice

Brighton, Colorado - USA

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Set up and Lap top issues won't be going away any time soon. If you don't want the issue, stick with your flybar. It's all good. When I'm on the sticks and it's working, the smile almost hurts. It doesn't matter on the how. Any well set up Heli will work. Same goes for the unit that isn't working how you want... BRAIN DAMAGE... vibration, gain, power issues, you name it. Something as simple as an empty flight pack can leave you on the ground feeling.... well... on the ground.

I'm not addicted...

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02-03-2010 07:08 PM  8 years agoPost 32
Jeff polisena

rrElite Veteran

westpalmbeachflorida usa

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I don't think it is fair to speak for others , some people say things by their experiences and can be interpreted the wrong way . I did feel a bit disconnected at first because with a fly bar you get used to flying ahead of heli but with FBL it is faster so your timing is off . After you get used to it and set it up correctly flights are tight and crisp .when you go from flying a Raptor to a Align , because of swash design you have disconnected feel also . It is a new feel and takes some getting used to also I have to say it's not cheating either because it still requires a good set up and pilot skills to fly

I stole it ,flew it and gave it back ;)

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02-03-2010 08:31 PM  8 years agoPost 33
KenJ

rrVeteran

Ohio, USA

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Autos
The only issue that I have found is that during autos with low blade speed / stops, you have to be very careful with large stick movements.

My first roll out of an inverted auto ended up turning into a non-intentional blade stop. Gotta love electrics, just spun it back up.

Otherwise, it is like flying a sim!!

Low head speeds are the only issue I have found.

Maybe there is a way around it????

Team Horizon

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02-03-2010 08:42 PM  8 years agoPost 34
rotormonkey

rrKey Veteran

Ottawa, ON - Canada

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I don't think it's an issue per se. Again, nature of the beast. The FBL unit will input more and more pitch until it maxes out to get the roll/pitch rate you're asking for.

When you're autoing, and your HS starts to drop on a flybarred heli you need large stick movements to get the heli to do what you want.

On an FBL heli, you still give the same stick inputs you would as if you were at full HS because the stab unit handles it for you. If you give big inputs like you didn't have the unit it cranks up the pitch and you'll lose HS.

It's just a different feel. When I started on the FBL thing I was a little worried about autoing with it. After shooting a few though I adapted, and it felt natural again.

If it can't hover, it ain't worth flying.

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02-03-2010 09:08 PM  8 years agoPost 35
Jeff polisena

rrElite Veteran

westpalmbeachflorida usa

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KenJ , What unit are you using ? you can turn gains or cyclic down . I had to finesse my system to feel as if it has flybar the only thing that I could not correct without using heavier blades is hanging autos.I feel that blade stops are less stressful because no worries of boom strikes. I can let heli fall and it will fall over or backwards/forwards and when I start correction FBL unit stabilizes faster.

I stole it ,flew it and gave it back ;)

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02-03-2010 09:25 PM  8 years agoPost 36
Big Fil

rrKey Veteran

Santa Rosa, CA

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I said to turn the end points down or the dual rates, he said he cant without his laptop!
You can adjust dual rates on your radio with Vbar, and any other FBL system. Endpoints you do not adjust though.

Just some food for thought here. If you wanted to change your flybar ratio in flight, could you? Nope, you'd have to go back to the pits grab your tools and physically change it. And that's if your lucky enough to have an adjustable head. If not you'd end up changing the whole head.
How about Bert Kammerer talking about the lag/disconnected feel?? If you look at his style of flying that is exactly where you will feel the disconnected feel. He also didnt look too happy in his Align FBL video and kept banging on about it feeling different but he never says 'better'. He also says how he didn't really want to fly it much in the video!
Like any system mechanical or electronic if it's not setup to your liking it can feel disconnected......to you. For the next guy it might feel completely locked in. I've flown other people's birds both flybar'd and FBL that felt disconnected. Did I blame it on the system no? I just knew there was something in the setup that wasn't to my liking.

Best thing is to keep an open mind and give yourself a number of flights on a given setup to adjust. First time I went back and flew a FB'd machine it felt like everything was off. A few flights later and my brain was starting to readjust to it's timing,interactions, and idiosyncrasies. Same goes for moving back the other way.

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02-03-2010 09:35 PM  8 years agoPost 37
Jeff polisena

rrElite Veteran

westpalmbeachflorida usa

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+1

I stole it ,flew it and gave it back ;)

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02-03-2010 10:14 PM  8 years agoPost 38
Doug Darby

rrVeteran

Dallas, Texas

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I converted my first heli to FBL about 3 months ago. Did the second one a month ago. I won't build another on that isn't FBL. I love how they fly. Makes me a much more confident pilot.

doug

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02-04-2010 10:07 AM  8 years agoPost 39
Richardmid1

rrProfessor

Leeds, England

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I think there should be a seperate class in competition for FBL.

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02-04-2010 10:43 AM  8 years agoPost 40
Jeff polisena

rrElite Veteran

westpalmbeachflorida usa

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Once the reconization of a need for compitition there will be ? Now we have more than one major developer the the competitors will still be judged by skills

I stole it ,flew it and gave it back ;)

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HomeAircraftHelicopterFlybarless Rotor Head SystemsOther › Who tried FBL and did not like how the heli flew?
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