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HomeRC & PowerAircraftHelicopterFlybarless Rotor Head SystemsAlign 3G News  FL760 and Piro Optimization
02-01-2010 06:24 PM  8 years agoPost 21
MrMel

rrProfessor

Gotland

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Not as long as your swash is leveled (and heli is in balance)
In a slide the swash is level, but in FFF its not, thats the difference.

Gone fishing..or hunting..or something
My site: http://heli.dacsa.net - VBar videos and more

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02-01-2010 06:27 PM  8 years agoPost 22
James Kovach

rrKey Veteran

canton, oh - US

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And to be honest, I have a hard time blaming a FBL controller for that. I have flown my Knight 50 with a Flybar and an SK360, which has no piro comp. I did not see anything out of the ordinary between the two. The same corrections I had to make with the flybar on I had to make with the SK360 on. What am I missing?

So I have to ask. What do I need to do to my heli with a flybar on it to make it just continue on in FF/FFF flight when I let go of the cyclic?

*disclaimer: These are my opinions. Agree or disagree, Your Call :)
Let'r Rip Tator Chip

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02-01-2010 06:31 PM  8 years agoPost 23
MrMel

rrProfessor

Gotland

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The only thing you can tweak on a FB heli is paddles and blades (well, and weight of heli but adding a pound isnt something you normally want to do)

Just as a sample, without flybar and without any electronics a heli will pitch up quite bad in FF/FFF, but with the "right" blades you can minimize that effect quite a lot, and with those blades on a "heavy" heli, it actually tracks good.

Gyros on a 2 axis helps stabilize, it will prevent some bad effects but only to a certain extent when it comes to adding piros, hence some stuff will feel bad with SK360 (have owned one too).

Gone fishing..or hunting..or something
My site: http://heli.dacsa.net - VBar videos and more

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02-01-2010 07:36 PM  8 years agoPost 24
whaleboy

rrApprentice

Los Angeles, CA

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I just do not understand this debate. If you feel you need "piro crutch-ensation", then spend the money for das VBar.

Yes I fully understand that the flybar will assist you in piro type manuvers, but it will NOT fly it for you as the VBar or AC3X will. I am sorry, but I do see that as a "crutch".
I want the helicopter to do what I tell it to do, nothing more. Why is that a "crutch"? If I'm in a stable hover and move the rudder stick to command a 360 piro, I want the heli to do a 360 piro, not go all wanky on the cyclic and have to correct for it. That is why I love flybarless... it (mostly) does what I command it to do. If I do a back flip it stays on axis. If I do a piro, I expect it to stay on axis also...

-David

Synergy N9; E-Aurora; Logo600se; Logo500; Logo400;Trex500;
All FBL..

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02-01-2010 07:49 PM  8 years agoPost 25
JeepCJ

rrKey Veteran

Pennellville NY (Syracuse Heli Group)

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I want the helicopter to do what I tell it to do, nothing more. Why is that a "crutch"? If I'm in a stable hover and move the rudder stick to command a 360 piro, I want the heli to do a 360 piro, not go all wanky on the cyclic and have to correct for it. That is why I love flybarless... it (mostly) does what I command it to do. If I do a back flip it stays on axis. If I do a piro, I expect it to stay on axis also...
I think that if the electronics are making corrections for you, and you do not have to learn how to do it, then it is a crutch, or shortcut, or what you want to call it. If you are not learning to correct continuios flips to to keep them in a spot, or move them where you want, then that is a shortcut to accomplishing the manuveur, and a skill that has not been learned. Sorta seems like some baseball players and steriods.
I have not seen the mad pitching up in FFF, will have to try some more, But I like that FBL gives me more power, and some flight time, and costs less for repairs.
Or course a heading lock gyro could be considered a cheat, or even a plain gyro at that.

Bob

Team Synergy/ Team Scorpion

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02-01-2010 10:19 PM  8 years agoPost 26
jyzoom

rrApprentice

Singapore

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question
AlignRC,

I am one of the first to call out 3G do not have prio compensation, and I apologise if it is indeed there as describe in your post. It is just doing it in different method, ha that is fine there is many way to resolve a problem.

I know when I piro while inverted hover, on 3G my hei wonder around. I take it as the piro compensation is not working well or tail holding is bad. On VBAR I don;t need to compensate my cyclic at all and I could piro and just use my collective is get the heli up and down exactly at the same location without any cyclic movement.

The feeling I got from the 3G while piro is like the feeling when I have the "piro compensation" on VBAR setup up to compensate the wrong direction, so instead of compensating it...it making it worst.

Question : How do you adjust the piro compensation on 3G in term of direction as it would properly depend on how you mount the gyro. Correct ?

Jonathan

Goblin 700, Furion 450, Synergy E6

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02-01-2010 10:31 PM  8 years agoPost 27
steph280

rrElite Veteran

Irvine, California

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I think what Align has stated is that there ARE communication between the rudder gyro and rest of system. It's not an independent module acting by itself.

If that's the case, piro optimization or gain optimization, can all be reprogrammed via firmware to behave one way or the other.

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02-01-2010 10:49 PM  8 years agoPost 28
jyzoom

rrApprentice

Singapore

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steph280,

I agreed with you...it seems now that 3G need to have programming to get it to fly close to the market FBL system with piro compensation. Hopefully they can make the program experience like vbar 4.0 rather then like vabr before 4.0....

But it seems like it is not as "SImple right out of the box" as it want to be.

Jonathan

Goblin 700, Furion 450, Synergy E6

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02-01-2010 10:58 PM  8 years agoPost 29
Jeff polisena

rrElite Veteran

westpalmbeachflorida usa

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I have to say it " if you want it to fly like VBar buy a VBar "it seems that most like Align FBL don't mind the flight for the price . The product does perform as we all know and have seen but like all other electronics it is user preference.

I stole it ,flew it and gave it back ;)

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02-02-2010 12:23 AM  8 years agoPost 30
SpeedVision

rrApprentice

Grand Rapids, MI USA

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I have to say it " if you want it to fly like VBar buy a VBar "it seems that most like Align FBL don't mind the flight for the price . The product does perform as we all know and have seen but like all other electronics it is user preference.
+1. I think theres enough data/input out there for people to buy any one of the many systems out there based on their own merits.

If you're a Vbar user, don't buy a G3 hoping that it will behave like a Vbar.

If you're and experienced pilot and you've never had a Vbar or any other system with Piro-comp, you probably won't miss a thing.
I think that if the electronics are making corrections for you, and you do not have to learn how to do it, then it is a crutch, or shortcut, or what you want to call it.
Keep in mind that the electronics are actually correcting a limitation of the mechanical system (flybar). Same thing with pitching up in FFF, this too is the limitation of a mechanical system.

If you and I switch heli's and I had to fly without piro-comp I would feel as funny as you do flying my heli (vbar)... That doesn't make either bad, just different.

We don't have to debate which is better because that's up to the individual. This is why some of the pro's don't like flybarless...because it feels unnatural to them (or whatever). Since there are choices, they stick with what they like best.

As we see flybarless mature, we'll likely see the ability for piro-comp to be turned on or off to suit the requirements of the user. Of course, I say this not knowing what's invloved behind the scenes relative to programming and capability. But a selectable option would suit the wants and don't wants accordingly.

Flybarless - The future was yesterday...you in?

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02-02-2010 12:48 AM  8 years agoPost 31
jyzoom

rrApprentice

Singapore

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Jeff, Speedvision,

I never say 3G is not good. Just not right for me now and yes I am still on VBAR aka mini-VBAR to be more exact.

I always feel that feedback to manufacturer help improve on their systems.

See we got ALign RC to come out and say something about "gain compensation" and also confirm that the tail is not independent to the cyclic gyro.....we never know that when they launch right

Now for most of us, we can now saftly buy the 3G knowing that they will improve on the software/firmware on 3G when you stack them up against the leader.

I am not one to pay high price if an alternative low cost good enough quality solution.

Let us all wait for the 3G version 2....oh..sorry some of us who will wait or all need to as we are all on different stage of adoption of FBL.

Jonathan

Goblin 700, Furion 450, Synergy E6

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02-02-2010 01:22 AM  8 years agoPost 32
HiroboFreak

rrVeteran

Central Coast, NSW, Australia

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Great discussion, although that's not the intention of this thread.
I found everything I wanted to know in the very first post.

Thanks AlignRC.
I look forward to the release of the software & PC interface.

T-rex700n VBar 5.3 Pro | T-rex700e DFC VBar 5.3 Pro | JR DSX9
Team RCBits | Team Lynx

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02-02-2010 03:15 AM  8 years agoPost 33
EricBrandenburg

rrApprentice

Milwaukee,WI

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I think the term piro optimization is a little confusing. When most people are talking about piro optimization in a fbless system, what they mean is really "phase optimization". Usually it is implimented by the cyclic literally changing the phase of the swashplate by 8-9* to one side or the other depending on which direction you are piroing. Now granted it's not always the same amoun, it varies by the speed you set your rudder atv to in the TX for your piro rate, but the concept is the same.

The fbless system will make the servo's change the tilt of the swashplate to make it act as if you had moved the antirotation guide slightly, making corrections off center slightly. Essentially if you gave it a command and watched the swash from behind(down the tailboom or 0* of phase), and rotated the heli on the yaw axis and manually moved the swash to look the same as it would if you were looking straight down the tailboom. Looking directly down the tailboom would be 0* of phase, and then the position of the swash after you have moved it simulates what the gyro's have to give input for while actually flyng and piroing constantly(roughly 8-9* of phase. If this is not happening, it will feel as though the heli is not responding normally as it would with a flybar, and you would have to change the timing of your cyclic stirring a bit to compensate for the phase change you are feeling.

Only raising the gain doesn't do that. Normally if you were to make the system have a "dynamic gain adjustment" it would deal with the heli wobbling in hard stops in either cyclic or on hard collective stops. This is very useful, but it does not correct the issue at hand effectively. It will make the heli wobble as mentioned though. For the most part, the average pilot probably won't notice this at all.

Only when you are doing piro maneuvers where you are holding a constant piro throughout the maneuver will this show up. This is the "funny feeling" that people talk about when they fly a flybarless system. You can learn to manage it, and some systems are better than others at making it feel "normal" like it does on a machine with a flybar. The issue is that the system only feels out of phase while you piro, so as you as you are not someone that does that type of flying, you probably won't even notice. This inconsistency can be an issue to some, but it only affects those with a very technical style of flying looking for maximum precision.

I just wanted to clear that up a bit, for others who haven't worked with flybarless helis wondering what everyone is talking about.

Spending money I don't have on things I don't need to impress people I don't know

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02-02-2010 03:47 AM  8 years agoPost 34
Ronald Thomas

rrMaster

Gainesville, Fl, USA

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I think the confusion started with the actual term "piro optimization". I could be wrong but that was a term coined by Mikado. It represents a very specific function of the VBAR. Now along comes the 3G and it's "piro compensation" which by all accounts is not the same level of performance as the VBAR so when VBAR users (myself included) see that term they expect that level of performance. Well it is not there just yet. Maybe it can be fixed with the interface and more programming but I think it will be more sophisticated than that.
Maybe Align should change the term to describe what their system does and not use a term dedicated to another system. Then there will be no confusion/debates.............Ron

Team MikadoUSA 480XXTreme, 550SX, 600SX, 700XXTreme, 800XXTreme!!

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HomeRC & PowerAircraftHelicopterFlybarless Rotor Head SystemsAlign 3G News  FL760 and Piro Optimization
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