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01-25-2010 05:10 AM  8 years agoPost 21
brcg123

rrKey Veteran

Wagoner OK USA

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Here are some pictures of my piston and head. the trail is on the opposite side as yours, but in same spot around the wrist pin hole, and the top of the piston has four or five deep pits from what ever it was gouging and burning into the piston and head. my engine still ran after I discovered this damage, but it wouldnt start without the throttle trim being raised to the top, then it would run, at high idle, but it would run and fly.








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01-25-2010 05:15 AM  8 years agoPost 22
brcg123

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Wagoner OK USA

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I just knoticed something, is your damage on BOTH sides of the piston? mine is just on one side. and your saying all of that damage came from just a little bit of the pin coming off? way too much damage there for that to have come from a small pin, is what they are gonna say.








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01-25-2010 11:05 AM  8 years agoPost 23
The Dude II

rrVeteran

IN - USA

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Hey Aaron - gus here...just saw this.

My HZ55 went too! Lost a plug towards the end of the flight practicing AMA Class 1. Pulled plug...element was gone.

replaced, started...idle was fine as I carried it out...died just as I set it down.
Restarted - rough idle for maybe 10 seconds...died. Played this game for 3-4 more starts...thinking..."man this engine has purred for 80+ flights...something is up"...hit the starter...no spin!

Opened the back plate...metal retainer from rear bearing was "all over the place".

Pulled head at home...nice chunk there too!

It's surely a paper-weight...it hits HS door tomorrow...we'll see what they say.

My second HZ55 is still running great...but still young...maybe 14 flights per the flight-log.

BTW needles are ~ 1.75 High and 1-5/8 mid, low ~ 5 degrees clockwise from center.

Piston & head are nice & shiny...so I serious doubt it's gotten too hot...didn't pull the liner to see if the e-clips were in place.

This will be my first "warranty" claim on an OS engine across a 32, 37, 2 Hyper 50s, 70 and now 2 HZ55s.

lotta ins, lotta outs

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01-25-2010 11:13 AM  8 years agoPost 24
The Dude II

rrVeteran

IN - USA

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@ brcg123 -those pics
take it you got the engine back "not repaired"???

the red-ish brown color makes me question fuel and operating temps.

I'm no IC expert...still in training...curious what the "real experts might think" based upon those photos of the dis-coloring.

Mine was "shiny" on the head and had a little "browning" on the piston at the exhaust port area.

lotta ins, lotta outs

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01-25-2010 01:44 PM  8 years agoPost 25
AaronJohnson

rrElite Veteran

mason,MI

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Gus, Let me know what happens with yours. Sorry to hear your troubles.

Yeah brcg123, You dont think that a piece of the wrist pin clip can cause all that damage on my engine? I find that funny. It doesnt take much in an engine that is spinning 17K to do some serious damage. I KNOW the wristpin clip caused the probelm as there is a piece of it missing. If the wristpin clips were still intact then I would be worried as to what caused the problem. I have 1.5 gallons more fuel thru mine then yours and look at my piston. It looks brand new other then the fresh gouges. Yours looks pretty discolored for 2 gallons.

Anyways, I totally feel your frustration about your 55 engine. I hope I dont expirience the same thing you did but you can feel free to stop saying things like "They ARE going to say this, and they ARE going to say that, and saying that the clip DID NOT cause that much damage" It is fairly annoying especially when you dont KNOW what they are going to say or do! Please vent your frustration somewhere else. Like in your thread.

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01-25-2010 03:35 PM  8 years agoPost 26
brcg123

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Wagoner OK USA

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the discoloration comes from the fuel I use, Magnum. and I didnt want to hear all the things everyone else had to say the whole time I was pleading my case either, but the final call will be from Hobbico. Everyone seemed to want mine to be from too lean running. I couldnt see mine being from trash through the carb, but they seemed convinced. what do I have to be venting about? I got mine fixed out of warranty, only three weeks old, no lean runs, needles set at the same as you had. Trust me, Im not venting nothing here, stating facts. your damage comes right in line with the intake, just like mine did.








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01-25-2010 05:57 PM  8 years agoPost 27
brcg123

rrKey Veteran

Wagoner OK USA

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you know, looking at the pictures I put in your thread, and you pointing out the discoloration on the piston, if you look close at the picture of the piston, showing the inside of the groove, it is as stained as the piston is, like it had been running like that for a while!! I hadn't noticed that until I clicked the picture and enlarged it.








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01-25-2010 08:34 PM  8 years agoPost 28
CoronaL

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Winnebago IL

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I'll verify Magnum stains the motor a carmal color. One of the reasons I don't run it anymore. I don't like products staining my parts.

Randy!!! I am the liquor

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01-25-2010 09:27 PM  8 years agoPost 29
AaronJohnson

rrElite Veteran

mason,MI

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I guess now I know that Magnum fuel makes the engine look as bad as it smells! That stuff stinks like burning antifreeze.

BTW, The engine went out to HS today. Now we wait.....

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01-25-2010 11:37 PM  8 years agoPost 30
CT.Chopper

rrVeteran

Meriden, CT

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Hobby services will probably say it's not covered since you disambled it....

they sent it in deep when i had a SZ hyper con rod explode on the 3rd or 4th tank..
first they said it was ran lean...i called them and made them phyiscally go look at the top of the piston and head...not a scratch
or dis colored at all i told him they were full of it.!!

then they came back later and said the fan came loose..!!

again i went back and said not likely, it was on a collet type fan
and it was tight believe me...not the culprit..

it came down to them offering me a new HZ for 300 bucks....

I said ok......then I asked if that had any kind of warrenty
they said NO!!!! WTF!

so i ended up telling them to stuff the old motor up their @&&
...

and that is how they roll...

now the only fuel burning engines are Zenoah's
PS.
HS Blows..

Rob Landry.

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01-26-2010 01:18 AM  8 years agoPost 31
BLUETHUNDER

rrVeteran

Glass City

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+ 1 with what Leif said

Time to start looking at a YS or Nova Rossi or KME engine

$300.00 for a paper weight after 2 gallons I don't
think so?

A VERY POOR DECISION BY HOBBY SERVICE
Quote
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bad for business

Sorry, but I see this as a really bad business decision by Hobby Services. If this was a routine warranty request for a product that had been shipping for years then rejecting warranty might not have much impact. This is different.

The OS55HZ in a brand new, unproven (in the hands of the average pilot) engine that is being sold at a ridiculous price premium. There are a large number of potential customers eyeing this product who are currently at a "buying decision point". All of these customers are wondering about the quality of this new engine; especially in light of the poor record of the OS50-Hyper with respect to rear bearing failures.

When it is apparent that the owner did NOT abuse this essentially new engine, rejecting the warranty risks pushing many of those other potential customers to the competitor's product.

Commenting that this two-week-old engine was run "extensively" with only two gallons of fuel flown shows a real misunderstanding of the heli market. MANY of us easily run a gallon of fuel in a single day of flying. We ALL expect an engine to last for at least several years and to not self-destruct after a few days of flying.

Of course from a legalistic standpoint you may simply be following the stated warranty policy. However, you have no proof that the object that caused the damage did not originate inside the engine other than an informed opinion that if it had, the failure would have occured in the first few tanks of fuel. While that would be the case if the object was loose in the engine, it does not cover the possibility of a metal chip that might have been lodged between parts during the assembly process. The customer is rarely in a position to provide absolute proof that a failure is due to a material or workmanship issue once the engine has been run. This makes the warranty rather useless.

Sometimes you just have to bite the bullet and agree to cover warranty for customer satisfaction reasons. I think this was one of those cases. Just like fighting with your wife/girlfriend, it doesn't matter if you are right or not; you still lose in the end.

Personally, I was all set to buy one of these engines. Now I'm going to wait at least six more months to see how this engine pans out in the market. Unless I hear more good stories than bad ones, I won't be buying one of these.

Leif

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01-26-2010 01:47 AM  8 years agoPost 32
CoronaL

rrKey Veteran

Winnebago IL

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here is my 2 cents on this motor

We are hearing of several failures on this motor and it's troubling. However, I'm not sure how many have been sold either. So maybe a dozen failures out of several hundred sold wouldn't be the end of the world. If on the other hand 50 motors were sold to RR members(considering sample size only to this forum in relation to reports of failures etc..) then it would be a rather high percentage.

I bought my motor's from HK and Japan direct. I figured the few $ I saved and I also recieved them months earlier than they hit the US shops, would be $ saved and I conceded that the warranty was a moot point.

I've had my run in with Hobby services/OS in the past. They will use ANY and ALL tactics to deny warranties. I believe it's a directive from management to save the company $. I say let them. Let them screw themselves. I did have a postive experience getting a dead Futaba BLS451 exchanged this year, but I will attribute that to the person I contacted and NOT Hobbyservices in general. I think I got lucky.

On the flip side. YS has repaired 2-3 motors for me in the past year. One was clearly my fault and I was prepared to pay the fee. The other was a conrod failure. They fixed them both free of charge and were back to me good as new. YS parts and service IMO will stand behind their product and give the end user the benefit of the doubt. When I talked to him on the phone about the one motor that was my fault, I wasn't sure what had happened. Now I do, but at the time I was baffled as to the cause of the lean run. It wasn't needles it was tank pressure I was losing at a bad time . Anyway, in the process of talking to him, he said that the motor was fine other than the lean run. I was bugging him about how to track down the issue, and eventually we hit upon the "ah ha" moment where I asked him if the T filter I was using on my tank pressure line could have caused the issue. He agreed it was a possibility and sure enough that was it. He said normally they wouldn't cover this sort of damage, but on this occasion since I was a good customer and I wasn't trying to pull the wool over his eyes with some BS story(rephrasing what he said lol ) he would repair is free of charge. I thought that was pretty cool of him. I would have gotten the YS56 if it would have been out, but I'm impatient and ended up getting a couple OS55's for now. I will try the YS56 in time.

Anyway! I think either of these motors is good. I think yes there will be some failures. It's a new motor and of course may have some manufacturing, end user, and other issues as it becomes more widely accepted. Just don't expect Hobby services to step up and honor warranties EVEN FOR 100% sure manufacturing defects. I firmly believe that 99 people out of 100 will be denied services based on what I've experienced with them, what I've read from other people experiences etc...
Their policy is usually in order of:
1) We found rust-whether they actually did or not
2) You haven't used after run oil-which IMO doesn't do anything but waste time and $
3) You had a lean run--which may or may not have occured. Surely some have and will try to get warranty, and surely some haven't, but will still be denied on this basis.
4) Users abuse in over revs, over heating, etc...
5) Foreign object damage. IE stuff getting into carb and tearing up innards.

IMO motor failures occur in these manners, most common first
1) lean runs and end user issues with install, operation etc... I've seen people goof up which needle is which, not know how to tune, not realize what they are doing. Doesn't make them stupid or anything, these things while simple engines are hard to get a knack for
2) Parts failures. A mix or manufacturer defects and fatigue from use. I would say anything that happens in the first couple gallons, assuming proper mixture, setup etc... would be a manufacturer defect. If you put 100 gallons on something, some part is bound to fail at some point. Ring, con rod etc...
3) Corrosion. Can lead to bearing failure, and consequently if not changed out, can lead to catastrophic failure. I will say that OS is full of $hit when they find a couple specs of rust on the rear bearing, and the piston flakes apart, that the rust caused that. Now maybe it was a lean issue, and maybe it was a casting issue. But if Hobby services finds one micro spec of rust anywhere inside, they will claim it was the rust that did it. IMO unless the rust is so prevalent that it's caused the rear bearing to start coming apart and or create play in the crank, it's very unlikely that rust caused any damage.

Randy!!! I am the liquor

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01-26-2010 02:01 AM  8 years agoPost 33
Gearhead

rrMaster

Vt

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here is how I see it,,
A) it all comes down on OS, surely HS does what OS wants, and that is most likely "save OS warranty money",

B) and surely there was less OS complaints back before Futaba owned OS !!

(Edited) so that comes down on Futaba

Jim
Buzz Buzz Buzz

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01-26-2010 02:26 AM  8 years agoPost 34
CoronaL

rrKey Veteran

Winnebago IL

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no I disagree. I think Hobbyservices as the US importer/rep for OS has control over how they support the brand. I'm sure OS has a say in it, but I would NOT be surprised to find out that Hobbyservices is charging OS for warranty work/parts and billing the customers a portion of those fees as well. I think Hobbyservices is the culprit. What I imagine, if warranty work for this hobby stuff is anything like with real Auto's, that warranty work doesn't pay MUCH. Some mechanics hate doing warranty work, and hence it's sometimes a pain in the Ar$e to get a good diagnosis. I could see in hobby parts, that OS probably pays for parts but doesn't pay much if anything for labor, and Hobby services as the importer, has the responsibility to do the labor, in return for being sole distributer or something to that effect. I think that's why they/hobbyservices will sometimes say total denial, and then claim to offer partial payment for satisfaction reason, but still costs teh user alot of $, usually in labor, or waiving labor and charging parts etc...

In any event it's BS is what it is. If they want to have the sole distributership, they should support the brand. As it is now, the brand suffers, and the end users get screwed.

Randy!!! I am the liquor

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01-26-2010 04:18 AM  8 years agoPost 35
kazager

rrApprentice

Waldorf, MD - USA

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I made a decision several months ago to not put an OS engine in any of my helis, experiences like you guys are having is proof positive that I made a decent decision. OS isn't the only company out there making engines and when they start losing market share over bad service, they'll get the message. I'm sorry to anyone going through this, I know I can't afford to buy 2-$300+ engines to keep one heli flying. Following the rules might save them some money now, but it will cost them in the end. I've bought 4 engines in the last 6 months, and OS has made $0.

Flying $uck$...All of the money out of my bank account!

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01-26-2010 04:24 AM  8 years agoPost 36
brcg123

rrKey Veteran

Wagoner OK USA

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I really think that OS has a potential to have a real winner with the 55, as soon as the kinks are ironed out. For what its worth, this engine rocks, just like everything else, the first edition isnt the best, but look at whats to come when they do iron it all out. I wish they were more lenient on warranty though, for sure...








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01-26-2010 04:44 AM  8 years agoPost 37
FlytilyaDrop

rrVeteran

Playboy mansion

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[quote]kazager I made a decision several months ago to not put an OS engine in any of my helis, experiences like you guys are having is proof positive that I made a decent decision. OS isn't the only company out there making engines and when they start losing market share over bad service, they'll get the message. I'm sorry to anyone going through this, I know I can't afford to buy 2-$300+ engines to keep one heli flying. Following the rules might save them some money now, but it will cost them in the end. I've bought 4 engines in the last 6 months, and OS has made $0.
I will say this very simple without writing a book on it like some of the reads above
OS Sucks man once I switched to YS my world of flying opened up to me and in no way will I ever switch back to OS period.
IMO

This hobby sucks, when your not flying.

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01-26-2010 04:50 AM  8 years agoPost 38
kazager

rrApprentice

Waldorf, MD - USA

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the first edition isnt the best, but look at whats to come when they do iron it all out.
They aren't covering warranty, so what incentive do they have to fix things. Knowing they have a problem hasn't changed there attitude towards warranty repairs.

Flying $uck$...All of the money out of my bank account!

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01-26-2010 05:03 AM  8 years agoPost 39
brcg123

rrKey Veteran

Wagoner OK USA

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good point...








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01-26-2010 05:05 AM  8 years agoPost 40
CoronaL

rrKey Veteran

Winnebago IL

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You guys are doing well to choose with your pocketbooks and maybe it will impact their bottom line enough that they change policy.

The problem is that like Intel in cpus, OS has market dominance and it will take a big shift in user preference before anything changes. Similar to the old POS Pentium4 intel kept pushing on people, hot and in-efficient. AMD came out with Athlon64, then dual cores etc... Pushed Intel to wakeup and make some killer cpu's again.

Anyway, getting off track.

I do like YS motors moreso than OS. But knocking on wood. I'm really liking my OS55, and provided it stays together I hope to enjoy it for a long time.

I think alot of what we are hearing is stocking the fires of hysteria. I would imagine OS motors outsell YS motors at least 10:1, so by the nature of numbers and statistics, you will see more OS failure posts. That said, I haven't seen one YS 56 failure post, and that's encouraging.

I think in the OP's case, his motor is clearly a defect and should be warrantied. I have about a 99.5% confidence that Hobbyservices will try to deny the warranty though .

Again, that's why I chose to purchase my OS on the "gray" market from HK and Japan. I don't have a warranty, but I think I paid like $260 or so for them. Not a great savings, but I was impatient to have a new motor to fly this past summer, and the YS wasn't out, or I would have went that route. Way I figure it, and the way unfortuneatly for the US buyers is they are finding out they don't have a warranty either . Shame on Hobby services for their stunts and unethical behavior.

Randy!!! I am the liquor

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