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HomeAircraftHelicopterMain Discussion › Getting away from the basics, what's the norm on a build?
01-23-2010 03:29 AM  8 years agoPost 1
reiserrob2003

rrVeteran

Brockton, MA.

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I recently built a new TREX 700n LE and last year I built a Vibe 50. I was thinking back tonight to when I first started building helis after I read an article on a Hirobo Turbulence build in the AMA mag. And to my surprise the author was balancing fan and hub assemblies, head components, checking run-out on a clutch and other things I've long since given up on. The question is, and I know there will be differing opinions, but what is the norm for a build these days? And I ask this because the things I gave up on in a build are generally things that never seem to be off. For instance, I gave up balancing fan and hubs because I have never really seen one out of balance. It seems that most of the manufacturing specs are so tight these days that there is really no need to balance it. Another thing I gave up on is balancing blades, both weight and CG wise. They all seem to come from the factory perfectly balanced, maybe a tenth of a gram off or so but generally pretty damn close to perfect. Another thing I gave up on is checking run-out on the clutch. the hubs come so tight fitting to the crank that I don't see how they could even get off center. I guess what I'm trying to ask is am I putting too much faith in the manufacturers, or are they getting to the point where machine work and molding techniques are getting so advanced, that checking this stuff is useless? Some opinions please.

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01-23-2010 03:36 AM  8 years agoPost 2
Sean Williams

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Santa Clarita CA

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I've come to find that with most manufactures, tolerances are so close today that your really don't need to do that. I never balance the blades, fan hub, run out or any of that and my helicopters fly vibe free.

Team Avant
Team Triforce
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01-23-2010 03:37 AM  8 years agoPost 3
george0079

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USA

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I think you hit it right on the head. For the most part, manufacturing techniques have gotten so advanced, that the majority of the parts really don't need to balanced, anymore. There are still going to be a few that do... But, for the most part, the major brands are taking care of that for us.

Hell... I can fix that.
Uh oh..
Nope.
It's ***ked!!!
RE-KIT!!!!!

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01-24-2010 02:25 AM  8 years agoPost 4
Nitrohuffer

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Bloomingburg,NY

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All my Hirobos have been vibe free with 0 balancing. My evo 50 is about to celebrate it's 4th birthday.

Lungs transformed to take in water.

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01-24-2010 04:28 AM  8 years agoPost 5
TMoore

rrMaster

Cookeville, TN

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If the machine flies vibration free that's one thing but if it doesn't; having the skills to figure out what the issue is and how to correct it is a plus.

TM

Delayed Response Operator Not Engaged
AMA SECTION 336 = Good
Drones = EVIL

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01-24-2010 06:04 AM  8 years agoPost 6
Sillyness

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Little Rock AR

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I still do it all because I don't want to have to chase vibes. Easier to do it from the get-go. The Vibe fan took some doing to get the run-out to zero... no filing, just a couple re-tightenings.

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01-25-2010 07:17 PM  8 years agoPost 7
chopper_crazy

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Delphos, Ohio

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I typically don't do most of that on a new build, if for some reason I get a vibration then normally I start by balancing the blades to make sure there ok and then work down from there.

It's a complex, costly, glow powered anti-gravity machine!

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01-25-2010 07:26 PM  8 years agoPost 8
jschenck

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La Vista, NE.

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Another thing I gave up on is checking run-out on the clutch. the hubs come so tight fitting to the crank that I don't see how they could even get off center.
I have yet to put a clutch on without a runout. My 700 has two positions for the clutch to bolt on to. One was way better than the other. I use a bit of aluminium foil to push the clutch over if it's just a bit off.

Checking the clutch gap and runout can prevent this

checking in action (on my Vision)

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01-25-2010 07:29 PM  8 years agoPost 9
jschenck

rrProfessor

La Vista, NE.

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As far as the rest goes, just basic blade balancing on main and tail blades. I *always* check them, the tail blades are out of balance more times than not. That's about it for me.

Also, when tightening down the engine, I run the starter on it as I slowly tighten down the engine in the frame. Helps keep everything lined up.

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01-25-2010 10:43 PM  8 years agoPost 10
hornet dave

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Cedar Rapids, IA USA

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clutch & fan hub runout. They're never close to acceptable when you just bolt things together.

I got a fever! The only prescription is MORE 6HV

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01-26-2010 04:16 AM  8 years agoPost 11
David Blain

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Mt. Dora, Florida (USA)

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I ALWAYS check Fan run out, fan Balance, Clutch Bell Balance (on the Align700 w/ magnets), Main shaft run out, Blade Balance, Blade C/G,
Tail blade balance and weight. This includes all the spare pieces I have that are marked and packaged as spares so I know what all the numbers are before I install them on the helicopter..
(I trust no manufacturers specs basically)

I could be too detailed but my Align 700 doesn't have any vibration anywhere in it!
Sure I can just "Bolt it together" but 30 minutes of pre assembly checks will REDUCE 3 Hours of vibration chasing!

That repair at the field slam dance only leads to problems in the future.. Find the problem, solve the problem.. simply put!

Solely my opinion...
Enough said!

David Blain
T.O.R.C.H.S. Orlando Member

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01-26-2010 04:52 AM  8 years agoPost 12
GimbalFan (RIP)

rrProfessor

Big Coppitt Key, FL

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30 minutes of pre assembly checks will REDUCE 3 Hours of vibration chasing!
Egg Zachery.

op-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-t

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01-26-2010 10:31 AM  8 years agoPost 13
Mojoe

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Brisbane, Australia

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This thread has raised a couple of points I am unsure about.

I saw earlier in this thread a picture with a dial needle against the outside face of a clutch shoe. I have also seen somewhere a picture with a dial needle against the top of a clutch. When people refer to measuring clutch and fan 'runout', which axis are they generally talking about?

Also, what equipment are people using to balance items such as clutches and fans?

Thanks in advance for any advice.

Joe.

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01-26-2010 10:57 AM  8 years agoPost 14
bathmagic

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Berwick,Victoria, Australia

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Interesting subject this one

I am currently flying the KASAMA Srimok and i balanced, dial indicated etc etc everything and the machine still vibrates !

go figure ! lol.lol

ENV - Still laying it down !….Ohhh yeh !!!

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01-26-2010 12:37 PM  8 years agoPost 15
hornet dave

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Cedar Rapids, IA USA

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvzOayO2G58

raptor style clutch dial indicating

I got a fever! The only prescription is MORE 6HV

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01-26-2010 05:15 PM  8 years agoPost 16
darkfa8

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Brick, NJ - USA

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I was one of the primary builders of that Hirobo Turbulence you read about in the AMA magazine.

The quality of the Hirobo parts is very high. However, checking everything while you build it gives you peice of mind and insures that factory did its job. Better to find a potential problem before lift-off than after.

Also a little tid-bid, Hashimoto's mechanic doesn't use a dial indicator. He does it by eye and always replaced the brass collet and crankshaft thrust washer EVERY TIME the clutch comes off the engine (they get distorted after 1 use and throw off run-out). His mechanic has been doing this for 20 years or so. I'm sure few people on here have the eye or experience, but if he's been doing it this long despite the proliferation of CNC and better QC, it pays for you to check with a gauge.

Now having built several other non-Japanese brand models, I can tell you that it is even more important to check components when building. I'm building a 500 electric for review right now and the stock main shaft was so tweaked it warbled across my glass table right out of the box. The replacement shaft was a bit better, but not perfect. This caused difficulties in getting the main shaft bearing blocks to line up perfectly and allow the main shaft to drop through - I couldn't get it perfect no matter what sequence of tighening I tried. I can't speak to how it will cause vibrations once spooled up, but I'm not thrilled.

I also found no thread lock on 95% of the fasteners and no grease in the main rotor grip thrust bearings in the factory assembled components. I'm sure most people would just slap it together and go fly it until it exploded for no apparent reason.

Anyway, model helicopters are still a complicated assembly of parts. The more precisely these parts can be made to fit and work together the better off the whole assembly will be for it. The most noticeable benefit will be a reduction in vibration. If you build a kit without checking anything, you may seem to be fine, but the electronics will see vibrations that your eyes won't pick up. This will lead to premature failure.

BTW, regarding main blade balancing. I had asked Ray H. of Ray's Authoratative DVDs if he has ever had a carbon fiber blade balance perfectly out of the box. His answer, "no". He's been flying since the late 70s.

- Dan Goldstein
Team Revolectrix

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01-26-2010 06:23 PM  8 years agoPost 17
G Steyn

rrApprentice

Heidelberg, Transvaal, Suid Afrika

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I had asked Ray H. of Ray's Authoratative DVDs if he has ever had a carbon fiber blade balance perfectly out of the box.
Ditto on that.... ,

Actually Ditto on everything darkfa8 have said.

Concentrate on your weaknesses and your strengths will reward you!

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01-29-2010 06:18 PM  8 years agoPost 18
reiserrob2003

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Brockton, MA.

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thanks for the info, funny you should bring up Ray, it was the first book I bought and read when I got into helis, He also wants you to strap the heli to a step ladder and run it up, I don't think there are too many people doing that one. lol. But seriously, maybe I'll start checking these things a little more carefully. With most of the carbon blades I have bought, I put them on the balancer and don't really notice a difference, the only way I can detect an imbalance most of the time is with a digital gram scale that reads down to 1/100th of a gram, mostly they are off by a tenth of a gram at the most. One more question, what do you guys use to balance the blades, do you remove material from the blade or do you use tracking tape or something along those lines?

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01-29-2010 06:29 PM  8 years agoPost 19
darkfa8

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Brick, NJ - USA

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some of Ray's suggestions are for people who have NO help anywhere reasonably close.

i had been using 3M Super 88 electrical tape to balance blades, but I may change to lead golf tape, as per Ray.

I use a digital scale and a Koll Rotor Pro balancer.

I check blade weight, spanwise and chordwise balance, rotor head balance with and without blades.

You never remove material from blades. You add material to balance/adjust weight.

- Dan Goldstein
Team Revolectrix

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01-29-2010 06:50 PM  8 years agoPost 20
TMoore

rrMaster

Cookeville, TN

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You never remove material from blades. You add material to balance/adjust weight.
I've matched lots of CF blades and you have to remove some material to get into the interior of the blades to add weight to make the correction so bear that in mind. There are no perfectly balanced blade sets but there are a lot of blades that are in a minimum state of unbalance. Balancing is essentially a misnomer here.

The long and the short of the situation is this; "there is a big difference in building a model and just putting it together".

TM

Delayed Response Operator Not Engaged
AMA SECTION 336 = Good
Drones = EVIL

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HomeAircraftHelicopterMain Discussion › Getting away from the basics, what's the norm on a build?
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