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T-REX 600 › ALIGN 3G FLB.
01-22-2010 02:36 AM  8 years agoPost 1
rocco.sj

rrVeteran

California,

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Hey everyone,just want to let everyone know that the Align 3G flybarless is in stock for most LHS. My team and i are doing some testing on the electric side version. I know alot of people out there are curious on how it would preform in the electric version instead of the nitro's as eveyone has seen in the videos. We will post more info and pictures as well as videos as soon as possible.Stay tuned to this thread if you're interested setting up the Align 3G Flybarless system. (the electric version). Thank you.

Reguards,
Ray F.

JR Americas
Evo Power Battery
Radio Frequency RC

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01-22-2010 02:46 AM  8 years agoPost 2
BPINE

rrNovice

San Jose Ca

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I will be there Ray what time we starting? Don't forget we need to maiden my old school V Bar as well. LOL

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01-22-2010 03:04 AM  8 years agoPost 3
OnTheSnap

rrApprentice

Santa Clara, Ca

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The system is installed on my trusty 12s 600CF. Pics below.

The install went great! I did run into one snafu which is that the included swash balls are designed for the new ESP swash. The thread size is too large for the older CF swash. So I had to improvise on the grip links by boring out some standard ball links. I plan on digging around to see if I can find a different swash ball or link, but my current solution works fine.

Here's what's in the test heli:
-Trex 600e CF
-12s power system
-85HV ESC
-Scorpion 4025-630kV motor
-2x Turnigy 2650mah 40C batteries
-Radix YB blades
-DS610x3
-BLS251

With a flybar she has flown really well. The power system is fantastic and it continues to put a smile on my face. I love to do autos, and I'm very curious how well it will auto with the new system. I plan on trying a few on the maiden this weekend and I'll report back here.

I currently have a vBar Protos, so I'll be comparing the system to my vBar experience.

Alex

MSH USA -- Cyclone -- Jeti -- Xnova

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01-22-2010 03:51 AM  8 years agoPost 4
rocco.sj

rrVeteran

California,

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BPine
Looks like a good weather on saturday for any FLB testing.I'm Looking forward seeing your beast T600 esp FLB on 12s.

JR Americas
Evo Power Battery
Radio Frequency RC

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01-22-2010 04:32 AM  8 years agoPost 5
schucb

rrApprentice

Minnetonka, MN 55345

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Is this the setup:

http://www.alignrcusa.com/index.php...c15c2d854f17f49

How are you bringing your voltage down? It says it is setup for 3s to 6s.

Brian

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01-22-2010 07:46 AM  8 years agoPost 6
OnTheSnap

rrApprentice

Santa Clara, Ca

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schucb,
I'm running 12s with a Castle 85HV. I also have a CC BEC Pro which provides 6V to the RX. The 3g FBL unit gets its power from the RX over 2 of the connections (rudder and aileron I think). The other connections are just signal wires and power and ground have been removed to reduce the size of the cable. The rudder is actually on a different power bus within the 3g, so you could use a dual output BEC and run the tail at a different voltage.

MSH USA -- Cyclone -- Jeti -- Xnova

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01-23-2010 12:28 AM  8 years agoPost 7
schucb

rrApprentice

Minnetonka, MN 55345

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Where did you get the FBL kit? I only see them in stock in Hong Kong sites.

Could I get a ESP swash to go on my CF version?

Brian

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01-23-2010 12:30 AM  8 years agoPost 8
USNAviationjay

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Houston Tx USA

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in stock here in Texas at LHS.. they are all over now..

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01-23-2010 12:42 AM  8 years agoPost 9
rocco.sj

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California,

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They should be in all LHS pretty soon and also depending on your LHS if they carry Align products.We got this as a beta testing.

JR Americas
Evo Power Battery
Radio Frequency RC

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01-23-2010 02:04 AM  8 years agoPost 10
steph280

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Irvine, California

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Yup ESP swash is a drop in fit for the CF.

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01-23-2010 02:07 AM  8 years agoPost 11
rocco.sj

rrVeteran

California,

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schucb
IT should not be problem using the Align ESP(silver)swash on your CF version. http://www.readyheli.com/HN6101QF_A..._p/hn6101qf.htm

JR Americas
Evo Power Battery
Radio Frequency RC

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01-24-2010 12:47 AM  8 years agoPost 12
rocco.sj

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California,

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Hey everyone,good news on the Align 3G FLB. Today we had very good weather came in for some good testing on the FLB. We will post some pictures and videos on the first test results of the align flb.Stay tuned!!

JR Americas
Evo Power Battery
Radio Frequency RC

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01-24-2010 04:50 PM  8 years agoPost 13
OnTheSnap

rrApprentice

Santa Clara, Ca

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Flight report!

OK, this turned out to be way longer than I anticipated. Somehow I felt inspired to talk forever here since I’m one of the early “normal” guys to get a system installed and up in the air. I’ve only had a single day on the 3g, so take this opinion as a first impression.

My first day out with the new system was generally a success. I’m uploading a video of one of my flights after a few hours tweaking with the gain and trying to get things dialed in. It should be up in a couple of hours.
I’ll try to summarize my experience and impressions the best I can, as well as articulate the flight experience in contrast to my vBar Protos. Obviously they are very different heli’s so it’s hard to do a direct comparison of the two. But I’ll try to focus on what the FBL system brings to my flying experience. This is all my opinion. So please don’t flame me if I’m flat out wrong! But this is what public forums are all about. Personal opinions.

I popped up in the first hover and had a trim issue right away. The heli wanted to drift back and I had to add quite a bit of trim to get in a solid hover. With the vBar and auto trim function, I’ve never had to use trim. I expected this to happen based on the latest FAQ, so I moved on without too much concern. I hovered for a few minutes and did a few flips and noticed immediately that the tail wasn’t holding. Time to start cranking up the tail gain. I landed after a couple of minutes to inspect the head, links and FBL electronics to make sure there were no issues with the install before trying to fly it harder (well, at least as hard as I’m capable).

On the next flight I started to try elevator tic tocs. During the tic tocs I had a really bad wobble, and my first instinct was that the gain was too high. However, the consensus among my friends seemed to be that a wobble should be corrected with a higher gain(huh?). I spent the next flight with even higher gain and things seemed to get worse. Aileron tic tocs were clean however.

Finally on the next flight I dropped the cyclic gain to around 40. It’s obviously hard to tell what the actual gain is since all you have is a POT to twist. Things suddenly got much better (but not perfect). In the meantime, I had been slowly cranking up the gain on the tail to get things locked in. It’s clear from my flights today that there is no communication between the cyclic control software and the tail control. The tail gyro seems to act completely independently of the cyclic. The system doesn’t have torque pre-compensation, and the tail just reacts to hard cyclic maneuvers instead of being one step ahead of the additional load like my vBar. So the tail never worked as well as what I’ve been able to achieve on my Protos vBar.

On the next flight I started to gain some confidence in the system and open up my flight envelope a bit. I was able to form a pretty good initial impression of how the system performs. I still haven’t worked out all of the wobble in elevator tic tocs, so I probably need to reduce gain a bit more. But I'm concerned how this will effect overall performance.

I did do an auto in the video flight to see if the system behaved well. See my comments below.

Here are the highlights. I included a brief comparison to vBar based on my initial impressions. Note that this will for sure change as I get more flights on the heli. Again, this is all my opinion! Do not take it as fact.

System Setup:
Disclaimer. I’m a very technical guy and I take great pleasure in really complex things. So I really don’t appreciate “dumbed down” interfaces. I don’t want to be protected from “advanced” settings. I really didn’t enjoy how much time I had to spend with the mechanical setup when all the fine tuning could be done in the 3g software. The vBar really shines in this area, and for me was much easier to set up perfectly. I also really liked getting a friends profile for the Protos and starting there. Setup was almost instant. So overall I give a strong nod in favor for vbar in this area.

Hovering/Inverted hovering:
3g: The heli feels much more “neutral” where upright and inverted hovering ‘feel’ the same. Inverted was pretty much hands off. With the flybar inverted hovering on the 600 generally took a lot more corrections to keep it in one place. I was happy to see that the trim I applied to get a solid upright hover didn’t work against me when I was inverted.
vBar comparison: I would say that the hovering improvement is close between the two systems. The neutral behavior between inverted and upright is a very welcome improvement

Forward flight:
3g: Forward flight feels fast and locked in. I was able to do high speed passes without any pitching tendencies. High speed flight is pretty much hands off.
vBar comparison: Both systems provide the same benefits in this aspect of flight

Backwards flight:
3g: Backwards flight seemed solid with no bad tendencies or tail blow outs. With a flybar I tended to fight the aerodynamics of the heli a bit and work to keep the tail in position. The 3g corrected this behavior and backwards flight felt the same as forward flight.
vBar comparison: Both systems provide the same benefits in this aspect of flight

Tail holding power:
3g: The tail on the 3g feels like a traditional gyro. Tuning of the tail is exactly the same as a separate gyro system. Loading up the head results in a “too late” response from the tail. So higher gains are required to minimize the effect.
vBar: The 3g is no competition for the vBar in this area. Torque pre-compensation has provided me with a tail performance I’ve never seen before. Note though that I am comparing to different helis. So it’s not a true apples to apples comparison.

Tic Tocs:
3g: I was literally startled by the quality of my aileron tic tocs on the 3g. With the flybar, I had to input constant elevator corrects to keep the heli parallel to the flight line. With the 3g, the heli literally just stuck in place! It was astounding and made me look like a better pilot then I am. I think the 3g really cleaned up this aspect of my 600.
Now elevator tic tocs were another story. From the beginning I had bad wobbling with any aggressive collective moves. I eventually dialed down the elevator gain to where I was happier with it. But I still have more work to do here.
vBar: I make good use of the stick response settings (I like “Hard 3D”) and collective pump. These attributes allow be to do much faster and more aggressive maneuvers with less finger movement. vBar wins hands down in this category.

Funnels:
3g: With my initial gain problems, I had a funny wobbling in all of my funnels. After dropping the gain to ~40ish, things started to improve quite a bit. Funnels were easier to hold then with the flybar, but they required quite a bit of tail correction during the maneuver
vBar: I don’t what’s in the vbar software, but I can’t believe how well my Protos vbar funnels. This is an area where I’m comparing apples to oranges on 2 different helicopters. But somehow the Protos feels more coordinated in a funnel and I need almost no corrections to maintain perfect large funnels in ay orientation. So for me, vBar is better in this area probably due to the integration of the tail and cyclic gyros.

Piros:
I’m not capable of complete piro flips yet, so my depth in this area is not too deep. I only performed a few upright and inverted piros today on the 3g.
3g: Piros are definitely improved over a flybar but they still seem to wander off and wobble a bit. Align has a lot of work to do in this area to reach the level of vBar
vBar: Piro compensation makes vBar superior in this area. The 3g seemed to show good improvement over my flybar setup, but it wasn’t close to the consistency of my vBar.

Power improvement:
My 12s 600 seemed vastly more powerful with the FBL system. Even with my lesser batteries it felt much more punchy in the air and much less likely to bog. The heli seemed much faster and more impressive. I haven’t charged my packs yet so I can’t comment on power consumption. But it was a rocket even on my 3000mah 12s 20C packs.

Autos:
Oh boy. First I should mention I haven’t done autos on the Protos vbar since installing the system. Most of my autos up to now have been on the 600 with the flybar. I recently started to do them on my 450. I’m not experienced at doing autos on a FBL system so I can’t draw a comparison to my vBar. I’ve done many hundreds of autos on the 600 with a flybar. So I’m very familiar with how it performs.
As you’ll see in the video, I went with a fast approach and a slightly late th-hold at maybe 150 feet. The decent was fine, and I had tons of head speed left through the flair. I was landing side in, and slowly bleeding off head speed to land. I made a slight right correction and the heli went into a hard right roll. RABBIT EARS! The heli wasn’t damaged other than a slight boom strike dent and little chip in the blades. The soft wet ground certainly helped.

Now I can’t say that the 3g is any different from other systems, but I would not expect a small blip of cyclic to trigger a hard continuous roll to the right that I couldn’t counter.

All of my landings prior to that auto are with throttle hold from about 5 feet. The heli drops flat with no cyclic input. I will probably try an auto again and see if I can land it by making my landing corrections early (during the flair) and do a hands off bleed of head speed until I land. But it’s clear to me I’ve lost my favorite auto machine by installing the 3g system. This makes me very sad and I ultimately plan on going with a system that supports bank switching (likely a SK720) where I can setup a profile that works with autos. When this happens I’ll move the 3g to my 450.

Now if I’m willing to give up on autos on the 600e, I would definitely have no issue leaving the system on the 600. It's a great improvement. Hopefully better pilots can chime in with some advice on performing autos on the 3g.

Summary:
So how does the system feel? Well after struggling through lots of wobbly tic tocs and weird funnels, eventually I was very happy with the results. But I'm still concerned that I may not be able to get high enough gain on the elevator. The system provides a huge boost in flight performance for intermediate pilots like myself. The heli feels way more neutral, and for the most part you do more flying then correcting for funny behaviors of the helicopter. You get a good heading hold effect in flight which is for me is one of best characteristics of FBL flight. The system really cleaned up and “neutralized” the flight of my 600 and it for sure is a worthy upgrade. I give the system thumbs up, but I still have some serious concerns with wobbling on elevator tic tocs and autos.

The auto tip over was a big disappointment for me. Hopefully others will master autos on the system and I can get some advice on how to approach the next one.

Flight Video - shows the initialization "twitch" and my rabbit ear auto at the end.

Watch at YouTube

MSH USA -- Cyclone -- Jeti -- Xnova

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01-24-2010 05:04 PM  8 years agoPost 14
cdrking

rrElite Veteran

Seattle

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Excellent write up and I really like how you say in certain areas you have limited experience. It makes for a very worth while read and I am sure others will benefit from this information.

Great job!

Am I correct in that the 3G does not have an auto trim feature? As I understand it you just increase or decrease the gain to correct the drift or wobble.

Jeff

To hover is divine, the alternative is rather PLANE.

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01-24-2010 05:07 PM  8 years agoPost 15
USNAviationjay

rrElite Veteran

Houston Tx USA

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that's really good news.
however there has to be something goofy about the auto.

I hope anyway..

little disappointed by your findings that it does not act like a true 3 axis system and hope Align sends an update.
but overall looks to be a solid performer.

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01-24-2010 06:05 PM  8 years agoPost 16
OnTheSnap

rrApprentice

Santa Clara, Ca

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Thanks CDR! There is no option to do an autotrim flight like vBar. I had to use real trim to get a drift free hover. This strikes me as very odd, but the recent Align FAQ says it's expected.

My auto tip over was likely a result of my inexperience with performing autos on an FBL system. I'll try some more where I'll focus on getting in position during the flair and keep my hands off the cyclic as I bleed off head speed and land. I'll probably wait though until more people chime in with positive auto experiences.

MSH USA -- Cyclone -- Jeti -- Xnova

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01-24-2010 07:37 PM  8 years agoPost 17
Eury

rrProfessor

Dover NH

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I always set up my FBL helis with dual rates so that when I flip it into throttle hold it has about 30% less throw on cyclics. The reason is that the FBL system will attempt to match the response of the cyclics no matter what the headspeed is, and at the end of an auto it will sometimes dump a ton of cyclic in to get it to respond to your commands. That is fine if you are used to it, but I like mine to be more like a flybar heli and have less response when the head slows down. It really helps with the overcorrections at the end of an auto.

Nick Crego

Citizen #0168

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01-24-2010 08:09 PM  8 years agoPost 18
OnTheSnap

rrApprentice

Santa Clara, Ca

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Thanks Nick! That's a good idea. Since I do boring non-3D autos this probably makes a lot of sense.

MSH USA -- Cyclone -- Jeti -- Xnova

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01-24-2010 08:39 PM  8 years agoPost 19
cdrking

rrElite Veteran

Seattle

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I always set up my FBL helis with dual rates so that when I flip it into throttle hold it has about 30% less throw on cyclics.
I like this idea but I don't know if it would work well with piro flipping autos. I was doing them with great success with a flybarred heli but then it's taken a bit of learning with the FBL heli to get them down. It seems with the FBL machine I have to fly it more to get the same result. This obviously could be my setup but I'm not sure if I should program less cyclic.

Jeff

To hover is divine, the alternative is rather PLANE.

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01-25-2010 12:59 AM  8 years agoPost 20
Eury

rrProfessor

Dover NH

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Dunno about piro-slipping autos, since I will never be at that point, but inverted autos work fine, there's still a ton of response with it turned down, at least how I have it setup, which is with extremely fast response when I am normally flying.

Nick Crego

Citizen #0168

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