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HomeAircraftHelicopterGasser Model RC HelicoptersOther › ARcing from the plug wire and rear frame mount on a G
01-21-2010 06:33 PM  8 years agoPost 1
lejon

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Las Vegas, Nevada

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I know this has been discussed several times and the consensus was that the shielding available causes as many issues as it fixes.

Here is what I've noticed and would like to see what others have experienced or think.

I cranked my G this morning (05:00), temp was 34 F and as it was dark still (except for the parking lot lights) I noticed the arcing each time I pulled the cord. I moved the plug head around and it simply changed the arcing from the lower part of the frame to the upper part. I have placed a piece of fuel line in that area so that the wire does not touch the frame and it is arcing at the top and or bottom of the tubing. At idle it arcs in a pulsing fashion. When I increase throttle it looks more like a continuous stream (just arcing so fast that it looks continuous).

After about 1.5 minutes the arcing is no longer visible. I am assuming that the cable warms up (which usually means lower conductivity or better insulating) and then at any throttle setting you cannot see the arcing.

I am thinking of putting an extender on the plug head to move the wire out away from the frame and putting some liquid electrical tape or something like that on the frame.

Has anyone noticed this and what have you done to fix it?

Lejon

[/PHOTO]

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01-21-2010 06:48 PM  8 years agoPost 2
rbort

rrProfessor

Franklin, MA - USA

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Push
Try to push the black wire further into the red plug. Sounds like your pin for the spark plug is too close to the edge. You could wrap it with something as well to insulate it further.

Generally I don't have this problem but seen it on someone else's machine. You could move the coil of the motor to the bottom frame also and then you'll have more slack on the spark plug wire which will help you push it more in to prevent this. I've seen people relocate it as well.

Hope this helps,

-=>Raja.

MA 1005 Hanson 280, 4210 flts
Spectra 27 3DMax, 3300 flts
Whiplash V1-2 Hanson 300, 1590 flts
Whiplash V2 Hanson 300, 437 flts

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01-21-2010 06:52 PM  8 years agoPost 3
rc3po

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Danville, Illinois

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Relocating the coil is a good idea... Hadn't thot of that.. .But I wonder if a layer of heat shrink would help insulate the plug wire.

??

Happay Happay Happay...

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01-21-2010 07:17 PM  8 years agoPost 4
lejon

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Las Vegas, Nevada

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This is a new coil so there seems to be more length than the older one. I am going to try and push the wire in farther and I will put the liquid electrical tape on tonight and try again in the morning.

I'm going to look at mounting the coil similar to the 1005 and see if that will help.

Another question:

Would you expect the engine to appear to be running richer and rougher since it is not getting full fire and may or may not burn all of the fuel on each stroke?
Lejon

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01-21-2010 07:26 PM  8 years agoPost 5
AceBird

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Utica, NY USA

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After about 1.5 minutes the arcing is no longer visible. I am assuming that the cable warms up (which usually means lower conductivity or better insulating) and then at any throttle setting you cannot see the arcing.
I would guess what happens is the warming effect dries out the wire and the area around the wire so resistance increases to prevent the arc from jumping. What you could have done while you saw the arching is spray the area with silicone. This will disperse moisture and increase the resistance of the insulation on the wire and the boot. Each time you mess with this wire you should spray it again because it tends to crack the thin coating.

Trying to shield the wire is a very bad idea because that arching will occur between the insulation and the wire without you seeing it. The arching shorts out the plug making the engine run bad and then you will undoubtedly start screwing with the needles.

Ace
What could be more fun?

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01-21-2010 09:58 PM  8 years agoPost 6
BeltFedBrowning

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Kansas City

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I replaced the insulator boot on my old Kalt gasser with a more robust one from an automotive plug wire.

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01-22-2010 12:23 AM  8 years agoPost 7
WillyS

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HOBART, OK USA

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Acebird hit it on the head.

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01-22-2010 02:29 AM  8 years agoPost 8
lejon

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Las Vegas, Nevada

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Thanks I have some silicone spray that I'll take with me in the morning and try.

Ace not sure I follow how the insulation will make it worse. I see where if it were a conducting material such as the sheilded kit MA sells) the arc could happen and not be seen but if it is an insolator it still has to find another conductor to jump to no? I thouhgt if you either move the conductors far enough apart or put enough insulation between them you'll not get an arc.

Just like the static in our bodies, if you slowly move your finger closer to a conductor you will get an arc, keep it out far enough and nothing.

Lejon

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01-22-2010 05:16 AM  8 years agoPost 9
Excalibur

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Destination: Earth

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The picture is a little hard to see, but if I understand it correctly, you may also benefit from using a longer plug. I use an NGK CR7HIX in my Spectra with excellent results. The extra length also help keep the high-tension lead away from the frame. Just a thought. . .

Xcal

Camper Fuel: It's Not Just for Breakfast Anymore

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01-22-2010 02:50 PM  8 years agoPost 10
lejon

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Las Vegas, Nevada

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Thanks Xcal, I'll see if those plugs are avaialble. What does the designation IX mean and how are they different than the standard plugs (other than length)?

Lejon

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01-22-2010 02:57 PM  8 years agoPost 11
AceBird

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Utica, NY USA

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Ace not sure I follow how the insulation will make it worse. I see where if it were a conducting material such as the sheilded kit MA sells)
Read my post again. I did say shield not insulate.

Insulation has to be thick like a hose that will go over the boot in order to be effective. Still, dust, carbon and moisture between the insulation will conduct the arc. That is why the spray silicone works. It seals up the gap between the boot and the insulation on the wire and prevents the insulation from absorbing moisture over time.

Ace
What could be more fun?

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01-22-2010 03:17 PM  8 years agoPost 12
Billme

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MS

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try this
If you will take the red plug cover off, you will see how all this works..

When you see sparking off the shielded side of the wire, it means that the center conductor may be touching the shield..

When you take the cover off, you will see a wire that lays on top of the shielded wire, it has a 90 deg bend with a sharp point on it.. They clear a area of the shielded part, and then press the 90 with the sharp point on it into the wire trying not to touch the shield and only contact the center conductor..

Sometimes its not cleared enough allowing contact with the shield.. Sometimes the 90 deg bend is to long, allowing the sharp point to go to far on the other side of the wire touching the shield again..

To get the boot back on, you may need to put a little liquid soap to ease it back on.. Try it dry first, it takes a little effort, but don't worry, it can be done...

Bill

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01-22-2010 03:17 PM  8 years agoPost 13
turboomni

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East of the Equator

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May I also add that when working on cars we would use dielectric grease on the inside of the sparkplug boots to prevent this. Also if you plug has an unusually wide plug gap this will worsen the problem. Check the gap and adjust as needed as when they wear the gap gets bigger.
Lert us know what works for you.

Setup is everything, All my heli's can fly far better than I can pilot them

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01-22-2010 03:43 PM  8 years agoPost 14
lejon

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Las Vegas, Nevada

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Bill thanks, the last time I took one off I think I buggered it up (borrow British term) pretty bad.

Ace you said don't use a shield because "arching will occur between the insulation and the wire without you seeing it."

Turbo, it was raining this morning so I will try the silicone first then maybe the grease.

Thanks

Lejon

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01-23-2010 12:44 AM  8 years agoPost 15
AceBird

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Utica, NY USA

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Ace you said don't use a shield because "arching will occur between the insulation and the wire without you seeing it."
he,he, well the word should be arcing but to further explain: Some people like to put braided wire over the insulation of the HT wire to shield radio gear from RF noise coming from the ignition. This wire would be close to the insulation so if the electricity intended for the spark bleed through the rubber insulation there would not be an air gap to see a visible arc.

If I still haven't made this clear maybe someone else can take a stab at explaining it. I know there are plenty of people on RR that understand this concept.

Ace
What could be more fun?

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01-23-2010 06:23 AM  8 years agoPost 16
lejon

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Las Vegas, Nevada

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Ace you are amazing. You state arcing between the wire and the insulation, then explain it as if I don't understand the concept of arcing between two conductors because, taking you for your word I ask about the statement you made.

Well for the record I am very confortable with the concept of arcing and what conditions are necessary. So there is no need for anyone to eplain arcing to me unless they would like to try and explain how an arc can develop between a conductor to an insulator. For the record, it can, just takes and extreme amount of energy and will typically result in the destruction of the insulator.

Now, if what you meant to say was that the sheild acts like the second conductor and the arcing continues (if not worsens because the two conductors are closer together) and is passed to the frame at the connection point for the sheild and the arcing is occuring between the sheild and the wire (hidden from view) and is not visable, I agree.

Lejon

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01-23-2010 02:48 PM  8 years agoPost 17
AceBird

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Utica, NY USA

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unless they would like to try and explain how an arc can develop between a conductor to an insulator.
Well I will try ...

An insulator (maybe rubber)is a material that is much less conductive then a conductor (like a copper wire) but will still allow electrons to flow if the push is great enough. The push is voltage. So for very high voltages the insulation must be very thick. Over time insulation material will break down due to heat and the ozone in the air. In real extreme conditions the insulation will develop microscopic cracks that fill with impurities from the air or oil and carbon from a dirty environment. These are more conductive materials that will eventually make the insulation non effective.

If you are old enough to remember the days prior to high energy ignition in autos you will remember the problems when cars first switched over. Those problems were insulation coating design related.

The effect can be witnessed but not advised by touching the spark plug wire of a very old lawn mower for instance with a moist hand while it is running. I am sure many of you have done this as is the case with me unintentionally.

If this explanation doesn't work for you I don't know where to go from here.

Ace
What could be more fun?

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01-23-2010 03:18 PM  8 years agoPost 18
shawmcky

rrElite Veteran

Isle of Wight,United Kingdom

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Danger!!!!!!!Do not try this "moist hand "test
On an automobile with a groin high metal bumper/fender

Team- unbiased opinion.K.I.S.S principle upheld here

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01-24-2010 06:45 AM  8 years agoPost 19
Justin Stuart (RIP)

rrMaster

Plano, Texas

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I'll never forget the feeling of the wet hand on the spark plug wire of the old lawnmower. Hurts a lot!!

Avant RC
Scorpion Power Systems
Thunder Power RC
Kontronik Drives

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05-30-2010 10:52 PM  8 years agoPost 20
FelixGiant

rrNovice

Ariccia - Italy

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Hi,

on my Spectra-G I used the braided shield, I relocate the coil as close as possible to the plug and actually mount it on the lower carbon frame.
There are two holes made for that there, then I shortened the cable going to the plug to keep it to a minimum and this is the result:

Regards,
Gianluca

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HomeAircraftHelicopterGasser Model RC HelicoptersOther › ARcing from the plug wire and rear frame mount on a G
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