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01-13-2010 04:48 AM  8 years agoPost 21
rotormonkey

rrKey Veteran

Ottawa, ON - Canada

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Both collective and cyclic alter the pitch of the mainblades. Which means - to me anyway - that collective pitch, and cyclic pitch are both perfectly valid terms.

As for measuring from the flybar paddles, I've never heard of it, but I suppose you could. I don't see you getting any accuracy though since the flybar is often a ratio of what you get at the main blades. Just because the flybar tilts to angle X doesn't mean the blades will do likewise. Maybe I'm wrong...

One more thing, the cyclic ring is not to avoid setting up your cyclics, or to limit your cyclic travel in general. It's generally employed to maximize your cyclic throws at full forward, back, left and right without binding linkages and things when you go to the corners. The idea is to let you get MORE throws, not less. And one way or another you still have to set up your throws. Ring or no.

And like the other guys said. 9-12 degrees of COLLECTIVE pitch in either direction is normal. 6-9 is normal for CYCLIC pitch. A heli CAN be 3ded with 9 degrees collective, and 6 degrees cyclic, though it might be a little doggish

If it can't hover, it ain't worth flying.

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01-13-2010 05:20 AM  8 years agoPost 22
dkshema

rrMaster

Cedar Rapids, IA

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cyclic=Deg of your paddles RIGHT!!!
No.

Cyclic is the number of degrees your blades get due to the cyclic mixing found in your heli. It really has no relation to the pitch angle you find on your flybar paddles. It's a function of the bell/hiller mixing ratio in your heli's head design and the amount of travel your swash has when it tilts.

Note that you cant tilt your flybar paddles from full negative pitch to full positive pitch (keep the flybar from tilting while you do this) and NOT AFFECT ANY PITCH the rotor blades happen to have. The only thing that moves is the flybar paddles.

But as you tilt the FLYBAR, you do affect the pitch of each blade (one gets more, one gets less). Hold the flybar in a fixed position, move the cyclics--again you affect the pitch in the blades -- one gets more, one gets less.

If you hold the flybar in a fixed position and move collective pitch, the pitch in BOTH blades changes in the same direction by the same amount.

To figure out how much cyclic pitch you have --

https://rc.runryder.com/p4091435/

And yes, there IS cyclic pitch. For a given collective pitch and swashplate tilt setting, as you watch the pitch angle of spot on the tip of the rotor blade as the rotor completes a full circle (or CYCLE) around the head, you'll find that the blade goes through its maximum positive pitch, then through zero degrees, then to its maximum negative pitch, and back through zero....for every cycle. The pitch of each blades changes dependent upon where the blade happens to be as it goes around. That is why it is called CYCLIC PITCH.

Collective pitch is simple. EACH blade gets the SAME AMOUNT of pitch AT THE SAME TIME (or "collectively" ) when you move the collective pitch control.

-----
Dave

* Making the World Better -- One Helicopter at a time! *

Team Heliproz

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01-13-2010 05:46 AM  8 years agoPost 23
fran

rrVeteran

HONEA PATH, SOUTH CAROLINA

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Here we go....
To set your quote" cyclic pitch" unquote. Here's how it is done.

1: set the pitch on the main blades (via your radio's left stick) to 0 degrees of pitch ( do this only after you have set your pitch curves up in the radio and heli)

2: rotate the main blades to where they are (from tip to tip) facing fore and aft (one over the nose and the other over tail boom)

3: Take your pitch guage and place it on the flybar paddle. You will use the main blades as a referance to ensure that you read angle of degrees correctly (in other words...the blades now are used just the same way you used the flybar as a referance to set your pitch of the main blades). Set the pitch guage to the degree of deflection you are looking for and lock the guage down) ex: place guage on 5 degrees (+ or -) as they will change as cyclic stick is moved fore and aft and left and right

4: Now move your cyclic stick to forward position and adjust the radios duel rate/cyclic ring or ATV until the desired setting is reached.

5: Now remove the pitch guage and recheck main blade pitch to ensure that it is still at zero degrees.

6: After confirming the above; rotate the blades to where they are
at the normal position (like you were setting the main blade pitch)
(the flybar paddles are now over the pod and boom...one pointing to nose and the other pointing to the tail..over the boom).

7: Repeat the same proceedure that you used for the fore and aft cyclic control; except do it for left and right cyclic .

MAKE SURE THAT BOTH THE FORE AND AFT AND THE LEFT AND RIGHT ARE SET AT THE SAME DEGREES!

Now throw your plastic cyclic ring stop on your radio away and see how much better and smoother you'll do any maneuver!!

Hope this helps.

This was published by Min Air (X-Cell); (Cliff and Curtis and Wayne along with Tim) wrote this up

FRAN SR. ( FAI-F3C)

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01-13-2010 05:50 AM  8 years agoPost 24
fran

rrVeteran

HONEA PATH, SOUTH CAROLINA

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All heli RC and full scale rotor blades
change pitch in rotation during cyclic control (flapping head and other)...that's how the rotor disc acts like a wing's ailerons.

Simple explanation

FRAN SR. ( FAI-F3C)

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01-13-2010 02:48 PM  8 years agoPost 25
dkshema

rrMaster

Cedar Rapids, IA

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I believe all that Fran's post is doing is measuring the amount of FLYBAR PADDLE PITCH you'll be seeing, which does NOT affect the actual CYCLIC PITCH at the Main Rotor Blades.

I had posted a link to the proper procedure, but I guess for the record, the actual text needs to be here:

-----

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

How can I measure my cyclic deflection?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Turn the rotor head so that the flybar is perpendicular to the sides of your heli. One blade will be out front, the other blade over and parallel with the tail boom.

Set your collective pitch to ZERO degrees.

Put the pitch gauge on the blade that's sticking out in front of the heli.

Move the AILERON stick to full deflection. Measure the amount of pitch your blade has.

Turn the head 90 degrees, the main blades are now perpendicular to the sides of the heli and the flybar is out front and over the tail boom.

Set your collective pitch to ZERO.

Put the pitch gauge on one of the blades. Move the ELEVATOR stick to full deflection. Measure the amount of pitch your blade has.

Reasonable values for cyclic are 6 to 7 degrees.

Note that with the collective stick at ZERO degrees, you'll measure + degrees cyclic when you move the stick to one extreme, and you'll measure - degrees cyclic when you move the stick to the other end. Generally you'll have as much cyclic in one direction as you'll have in the other, so you might measure -6 and +6 as you move the stick end to end.

-----

Depending upon the amount of collective pitch you have, you don't want to exceed about 17 degrees total pitch -- Collective + Cyclic. Above about 17 degrees, the blades begin to stall and you get lots of drag, bogging, and nasty flight characteristics.

Also, as the amount of cyclic increases, you'll increase the amount of binding in the head when you move the stick to the "corners". This can be detrimental and cause you to bog badly, or worse.

-----

Fran's post also says to use your Dual Rates/ATV to adjust the pitch, and somehow, you're supposed to adjust your cyclic ring (if used). That's an item that simply has no adjustment. It's either installed, or it's not. There is no cyclic ring adjustment. Further, if you are setting up a CCPM mixed swash, you would NOT touch the endpoints/ATV/dual rates for the elevator/aileron channels, as that would instead give you some really weird cyclic interaction. You would want to use the aileron/elevator values in the SWASH MIX/SWASH AFR menu instead.

-----

Again, adjusting the amount of FLYBAR PADDLE deflection you get will NOT affect the amount of CYCLIC PITCH you get since the cyclic pitch value is measured at the MAIN ROTOR blade, and is a function of the bell/hiller mixing ratio and the amount of swash deflection you have.

-----
Dave

* Making the World Better -- One Helicopter at a time! *

Team Heliproz

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01-13-2010 02:55 PM  8 years agoPost 26
Jlerch

rrApprentice

Parrish, Florida

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Take your pitch guage and place it on the flybar paddle
I'm glad that works for you, but if I did that to mine it would fly so tame that it would be near impossible to control.

I call what YOU measured flybar paddle cyclic pitch, and I have nearly 29 degrees of it! I measured several helis at my field and all had between 26 and 29 degrees of paddle pitch while at zero degree of main blade collective pitch.

While we are talking numbers, here is what I commonly measure on 3D setups

(all measurements made with flybar locked at 90 degrees to main shaft)
  1. 26-29 degrees flybar paddle cyclic pitch
  2. 7-9 degrees of main blade cyclic pitch
  3. 10 - 15 degrees of collective main blade pitch
Some of the values depend on the pilot, some depend on the flight mode. I have 15 degrees of collective while in throttle hold, but only 10 degrees in flight mode 1... Similar ideas with

James Lerch - Tampa Bay FL

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01-13-2010 03:44 PM  8 years agoPost 27
bopshi

rrApprentice

greenport ny

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You are a comedian yug!

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01-13-2010 04:29 PM  8 years agoPost 28
fran

rrVeteran

HONEA PATH, SOUTH CAROLINA

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I must be truthful here...I just read dkshema's post on the set-up...I just can't get it
out of my mind!!!! It sounds so familiar to me...with exception of how to adjust the swash deflection

If you want to see what really happens to the blades when you adjust the extreme amount of cyclic input and see how they differ from fore and aft to left and right...just hold the stick and you'll see the blade relation ship...if you fly at all; you notice that the main single blade pitch changes individually with every cyclic input...daah!

As far as the three D guys. I have to appologise...the set up and ajustment I gave earlier; is primarly used for FAI-F3C and Class I, II and III AMA and International Airo Federation type flying.

3D pilots are continually changing set up ever since Dwight S. did the first forward tumble (as it was called in High Point, S.C.)

I just know what I was tought a Ft Rocker back in 1967...sorry if I have confussed this thread or ruffled anyones feather.

God bless and remember..it is a nice hobby...not a political discussion...lol

FRAN SR. ( FAI-F3C)

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01-13-2010 04:37 PM  8 years agoPost 29
fran

rrVeteran

HONEA PATH, SOUTH CAROLINA

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May be this will clear up the "Cyclic Pitch" deffinition
Cyclic

Enstrom F28A Cyclic control
Blue button: Trim/center cyclic
Red button: 1st click intercom, 2nd radio
Green button: Cargo release/No FunctionThe cyclic control is usually located between the pilot's legs and is commonly called the cyclic stick or just cyclic. On most helicopters, the cyclic is similar in looks to a joystick in a conventional aircraft. By contrast, the Robinson R22 and Robinson R44 have a unique teetering bar cyclic control system and a few early helicopters have had a cyclic control that descended into the cockpit from overhead.[citation needed] The control is called the cyclic because it changes the pitch of the rotor blades cyclically. That is, the pitch or feathering angle of the rotor blades changes depending upon their position as they rotate around the hub so that all blades will change their angle the same amount at the same point in the cycle. The change in cyclic pitch has the effect of changing the angle of attack and thus the lift generated by a single blade as it moves around the rotor disk. This in turn causes the blades to fly up or down in sequence, depending on the changes in lift affecting each individual blade.

The result is to tilt the rotor disk in a particular direction, resulting in the helicopter moving in that direction. If the pilot pushes the cyclic forward, the rotor disk tilts forward, and the rotor produces a thrust vector in the forward direction. If the pilot pushes the cyclic to the right, the rotor disk tilts to the right and produces thrust in that direction, causing the helicopter to move sideways in a hover or to roll into a right turn during forward flight, much as in a conventional aircraft.

On any rotor system there is a delay between the point in rotation where a change in pitch is introduced by the flight controls and the point where the desired change is manifest in the rotor blade's flight. This phenomenon has been confused with gyroscopic precession for ease of teaching in some organizations; but, is more appropriately referred to as phase lag. The lag varies with the geometry of the rotor system but is never more than ninety degrees.[citation needed] The lag is the time it takes for the blade to change its flapped position after the change in lift and is an example of a dynamic system in resonance.[citation needed]

From an ignorant VietNam Pilot

FRAN SR. ( FAI-F3C)

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01-13-2010 06:02 PM  8 years agoPost 30
FlytilyaDrop

rrVeteran

Playboy mansion

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https://rc.runryder.com/p4091435/

As stated above this is the correct way to set up heli plus one for me.

But remember its in your swash menu that you increase or decrease the settings of pitch and collective when you increase the value on ele, ail, or pitch, it will increase or decrease both ends of degrees.

May I add that before and this is a must in my book, before you even set up your cyclic or pitch in order to make sure you get equal deg of pitch of + and -

You must mechanically adjust swash plate 90deg to main shaft at 0 deg pitch.

1. I set my pitch curve in radio to 50 percent on both high and low and mid stick so my servo is perfectly centered.
2. I then adjust linkages so control arms are 90degs as per heli instructions, then follow that up to swash and adj linkages to get a perfectly level swash plate at 50 percent.
3. Then I put my pitch curve 0 to 50 to 100 to get full collective range, and I push my swash all the way to full collective and use my adj travel in radio to level swash plate at full collective then do the same at full negative.
So my swash plate threw its full range will be level.

Most servo gears will cause the swash plate to divert at full neg or full pos collective so the radio travel adj helps to perfect a perfect level swash plate.

Once this is done I then put back on rotor head and do my settings for +- setups for my liking without binding.

This hobby sucks, when your not flying.

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01-13-2010 06:05 PM  8 years agoPost 31
dkshema

rrMaster

Cedar Rapids, IA

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The control is called the cyclic because it changes the pitch of the rotor blades cyclically. That is, the pitch or feathering angle of the rotor blades changes depending upon their position as they rotate around the hub so that all blades will change their angle the same amount at the same point in the cycle. The change in cyclic pitch has the effect of changing the angle of attack and thus the lift generated by a single blade as it moves around the rotor disk.
No confusion from my earlier post...
And yes, there IS cyclic pitch. For a given collective pitch and swashplate tilt setting, as you watch the pitch angle of spot on the tip of the rotor blade as the rotor completes a full circle (or CYCLE) around the head, you'll find that the blade goes through its maximum positive pitch, then through zero degrees, then to its maximum negative pitch, and back through zero....for every cycle. The pitch of each blades changes dependent upon where the blade happens to be as it goes around. That is why it is called CYCLIC PITCH.
As for setting the swash stuff...

If you simply position the rotor blades fore and aft, SET COLLECTIVE PITCH to ZERO DEGREES, hold the flybar level, and move the AILERON (left/right cyclic stick) and watch the blades, you'll see one increase in pitch, the other will decrease in pitch, as the feathering shaft is the axis on which the grips rotate.

If you look at the blade hanging out in front, and give full aileron deflection in one direction, you will see the blade gain about 6 - 7 degrees of pitch from ZERO. If you move the aileron stick to full deflection in the other direction, you will see that same blade lose about 6 - 7 degrees of pitch from ZERO. THAT is the CYCLIC pitch value you are setting your SWASH AFR/SWASH MIX aileron and elevator values to achieve -- CCPM heli, or aileron/elevator endpoint adjustments in a standard mix heli. Note that nowhere in this process did the pitch angle of the FLYBAR PADDLES enter the discussion.

-----
Dave

* Making the World Better -- One Helicopter at a time! *

Team Heliproz

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01-13-2010 06:21 PM  8 years agoPost 32
fran

rrVeteran

HONEA PATH, SOUTH CAROLINA

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Uncle...I went back into my archives and reread some notes that I had...
not only did I adjust the angel of attack of my paddles; but also set the cyclic swash input using the above described method..ie: puting the blades over the nose and full deflect of the fore and aft swash and then putting the blades back to original location (like you were going to set up your pitch) and check full deflection of the swash left and right.

I appoligise for the misleading info. I admit that I had not completed the entire setup like I should have.

FRAN SR. ( FAI-F3C)

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01-13-2010 06:45 PM  8 years agoPost 33
dhc8guru

rrApprentice

Fort Worth, Texas

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I found I needed +/-13 degrees cyclic and +/-21 degrees collective to do 4D.
Yug, thats 21° total +/-11°?

Depending on the blades your using probably more that +/-15° on collective the blades will stall.

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01-13-2010 07:15 PM  8 years agoPost 34
dkshema

rrMaster

Cedar Rapids, IA

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No problem Fran, just trying to make sure the right info is out there so we don't send a newbie off into setup hell.

-----
Dave

* Making the World Better -- One Helicopter at a time! *

Team Heliproz

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01-14-2010 12:19 AM  8 years agoPost 35
maxxteezy

rrApprentice

texas

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your title...

YardBird Rc
Team Hardcore
Team LunaTickz
Mikes Hobby Shop

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01-14-2010 04:09 AM  8 years agoPost 36
Dirthead

rrApprentice

Thornton Co.

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100 % agreed with Dave! Myself I use +/- 12 collective with 6 to 8 cyclic deflection on a Trex 700... Very quick but also very stable in fast fwd flight. Stock paddles and Align 690s. If you want more then use lighter and longer paddles but good luck with control issues!

Keep ur head out the dirt only in the grass

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01-14-2010 04:32 AM  8 years agoPost 37
Dirthead

rrApprentice

Thornton Co.

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As far as my 600 Im using +- 13 collective and 6 on the cyclic. Also im at 5280 feet in elevation so the air here is rather thin. Any more than that and the swash will bind up against the pins in the washout block. That is a very bad thing as this causes a number of things to go wrong... servos burning up and such. Just remember that that any blade/airfoil stalls at 16 degrees at which point only drag is created, thus your pitch management has to be good. Keep practicing and you will find a happy medium good for you.

Keep ur head out the dirt only in the grass

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01-17-2010 03:25 PM  8 years agoPost 38
RAVVEN

rrNovice

Rustenburg, South Africa

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after all the info, riped of the blades, redone the setup on the head, 11-11, 6-6, heli much more stable ect... but.. bloged the head and heli fell from the sky!! Pitch management.. were can I buy a BUCKET FULL?

ABC- Always Be Controling!!

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01-17-2010 05:04 PM  8 years agoPost 39
Yug

rrMaster

UK. Herts

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Please ignore my post. I was joking wasn't I. Appologies to anyone that took it seriously

On a serious note, does anyone know what the flybar ratio is on the Trex700 or is this adjustable ?

Vegetable rights and Peace

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01-17-2010 06:02 PM  8 years agoPost 40
dkshema

rrMaster

Cedar Rapids, IA

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Yug, it's a fixed ratio, but I don't know off-hand what it is.

-----
Dave

* Making the World Better -- One Helicopter at a time! *

Team Heliproz

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