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01-14-2010 03:11 PM  8 years agoPost 41
Toxic Al

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chuluota, Fl

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You need to look at what i said , was not knocking you I said in my testing we no had luck with stroker stuffed crank. not you and i also said you were going for the right idea, torque. I never said the 26ei was not good, I said i had no experience with it.I was trying to diagnose one of your customers problems with your motor and heli, he called me not the other way around. he asked if i could balance the motor and what i said was since it does not use a flywheel i would have to see what it would take to fix his problem. Don't put words in my mouth and don't try to start something that is not there. I hope you do well with your engine like I said a few posts back. I will not caught in up in this he said , she said. i was asked my opinion and I gave it. I don't bash anyone. Peace, Al

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01-14-2010 03:11 PM  8 years agoPost 42
shawmcky

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Isle of Wight,United Kingdom

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To be honest
The way i read the post,i dont think Toxic is knocking your engine/s at all.We are all interested to see the engine in action i think,just debating the pros and cons of various set ups.Your engine might well outstanding.

Team- unbiased opinion.K.I.S.S principle upheld here

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01-14-2010 03:18 PM  8 years agoPost 43
AceBird

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Utica, NY USA

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the motors for heli's need wider power curves and peak lower to the given rpm range intended.
I think when you say wider you are referring to torque changes with respect to throttle position. Max horsepower occurs at a single point, WFO for a given speed. Unlike a plank or a boat the heli is intended to run at one speed using the full range of the throttle to increase or decrease torque. When people look at plank engines to do conversions in helis IMO they are taking a step in the wrong direction.

I don't think a dyno lies or gives erroneous data. It's an instrument. What I think (for helis anyway) is that the wrong information is collected. Torque values should be collected for a fixed RPM while varying the throttle (say through 10 points). Then a curve is plotted based on throttle position. A new RPM is selected and the test is run again. Someone with experience and a good hunch should be able to hone in on the perfect run speed with about 5 tries.

The accuracy of the torque values are not important if all testing is done on the same machine. The plotted curves will tell the story in black and white. Using this same test you will also see the effects of tuning, and you might be amazed at what you find.

Ace
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01-14-2010 03:37 PM  8 years agoPost 44
AceBird

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Utica, NY USA

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I believe You are the same person that told our customers & RR that EI'S are no good...
You might be thinking of something I said. I don't have a lot of faith in EI's for helis and I still don't regardless of how many are being used. I don't see that an EI increases horsepower through the full charge of the battery. After the weight of the battery is considered there is only a slight weight advantage. Their complexity increases the failure rate for a dead stick. For me, in a plank no problem, but in a heli, big problem. One of the big reasons that I like gas (magneto-ed) in planks and helis is the dependability of ignition.

Ace
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01-15-2010 08:46 PM  8 years agoPost 45
Toxic Al

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chuluota, Fl

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I have to disagree with you. As a tuner I have to acommodate different set up and flying styles and gearing and head speeds.yes we fly at one specific "rpm" but most situations will have variations. heavy pitch changes will cause the motor to change rpms so having a wider power curve helps with that.A flat torque curve is what is needed and plenty of it, but a peaky power curve won't give you that. And i don't know about you my setups for normal mode and idle up are different. I run different head speed with each mode.that is my opinion. Peace, Al

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01-16-2010 05:13 PM  8 years agoPost 46
AceBird

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Utica, NY USA

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Everything
I see contradictions in your statements.

If the torque curve is flat then when you slam max pitch into the heli the RPM will drop like a rock. Sure any sudden load will bring the RPM down but if the torque doesn't increase as that RPM sags it will drop right out of the power band and dog.

It looks like you are mixing terms. Power is torque and speed (both). Making statements like flat torque curve and wide power curve are hard to comprehend.

I couldn’t find the published zenoah curves on the net that use to be available but I found this one as an example.

If you were to pick a run RPM for this engine based on where the torque is flat you would pick 9000. But you would sacrifice a lot of useful power at that point and any dip in RPM would result in lower torque together with much lower HP. On the other side of the coin if you picked a run RPM near 12,000 a slight dip in RPM would increase torque without changing the HP output. Because… as the RPM slows down the torque goes up keeping the HP the same. To me that is what makes the power curve wide along with the max torque being a little left of the max power.

Ok, so you mentioned normal curves and idle up curves as a variable. Which one are you going to set your gear ratio for? Unless you have a variable transmission one is going to be a compromise. In my line of thinking you want the best performance for the idle up so the normal is the one you want to compromise. I can’t imagine why you would want better performance at the lower headspeed.

Ace
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01-16-2010 06:05 PM  8 years agoPost 47
Toxic Al

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chuluota, Fl

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At this point I can't make you understand the principals that pertain to my original posts. I will keep on making power and torque the way I do and if people like what I ,hanson,wally or irwin do then so be it if they don't stk is always another option. I'm out peace, Al

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01-17-2010 08:21 AM  8 years agoPost 48
shawmcky

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Isle of Wight,United Kingdom

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Hmm
Some can think/talk of a good engine and what is required,others can build them.Thanks to the ones that can do both.Reputation usually wins the day.

Team- unbiased opinion.K.I.S.S principle upheld here

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01-17-2010 03:31 PM  8 years agoPost 49
AceBird

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Utica, NY USA

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Some can think/talk of a good engine and what is required
He, he ... I love these derogatory comments. It is the thinking and talking that results in improvements. It is not in a "builders" interest to make changes. Competition and customer demand forces the change.

Ace
What could be more fun?

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01-17-2010 05:37 PM  8 years agoPost 50
Toxic Al

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chuluota, Fl

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Ace you are missing the point, I test all the time for "different applications" as I first said. I as a builder have to build for every type of situation and it is damn near impossible to make a seperate spec for everything. And when i said I will keep on doing what i do that does not mean I am close minded and won't build a different way.. I don't own every gas helicopter made and could not afford it. I fly a certain way and like my heli a certain way that is why I have test pilots that fly differently then I and i test to find the best set up I can. try putting the shoe on the other foot and see things from a builders perspective. we have to make people happy and it is hard to do because everyone wants things different sometimes there is a compromise.Just because you don't understand my way of explaination does not mean i am wrong just
that you don't understand it. I do the best I can to give the people the best product i can as does hanson,wally and so on and i pride myself on it.if you don't like me fine just don't try discredit my ability or reputaion i would not do that to you. that's not what i am about.

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01-17-2010 08:44 PM  8 years agoPost 51
windy62

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USA

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There are those that "DO", and there are those that "talk" about it...

Seems like a lot of "talk" lately from a few wannabee designers...

windy62

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01-18-2010 01:50 AM  8 years agoPost 52
AceBird

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Utica, NY USA

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Just because you don't understand my way of explaination does not mean i am wrong just
that you don't understand it.
Al, I am sorry if I left an impression that you were wrong or that your explanations were wrong. Why would I have any reason to not like you? I thought I was discussing the benefits of taking data (a dyno) and how to interpret the data. I asked some specific questions and you choose not to answer the questions. Did I give you any beef about not answering the questions? I don't believe I did. The comments from the peanut gallery ... they are fair game in my book.

Ace
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01-18-2010 02:35 AM  8 years agoPost 53
windy62

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USA

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I see contradictions in your statements.
It looks like you are mixing terms.

windy62

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01-18-2010 02:06 PM  8 years agoPost 54
AceBird

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Utica, NY USA

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Windy, you are pretty good with the quote button now what is your point? Are you Al under another member name, his spokes person or just someone trying to agitate two people having a discussion?

Ace
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01-18-2010 02:53 PM  8 years agoPost 55
bjj0866

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Red Hook N.Y.USA

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I dont know al or windy but Ace you have gotten into it with more people on more posts than i care to mention. Why the hell is with that.

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01-19-2010 03:07 AM  8 years agoPost 56
windy62

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USA

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Sorry Acebird, I though you were smart and could see how those 2 quotes contradicted your statement of
I am sorry if I left an impression that you were wrong or that your explanations were wrong
As an armchair (keyboard) engineer, it's easy for you to spend a lot of time in here questioning the why and wherefores of those actually producing a product that works and works well for most people. Is it perfect for everyone? Doubtful. Is it a bad thing to question and learn? Not at all.

But you don't seem to question to learn, you only seem to question, just to question!! I mean is it your way of convincing yourself how smart you are? Convincing yourself that you know more than those who are producing things that people seem to find more than adequate to use in their model helicopter?

How about you actually buy one of Al's engines, put it in your helicopter, test it's power and reliability, heck even put it on a dyno if you feel so inclined, then I think you could possibly make some recommendations to Toxic Al or Al at Hanson's or Wally because then you would have some real world experience to base any recomendations on.

Just my opinion of course....

windy62

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01-19-2010 01:55 PM  8 years agoPost 57
AceBird

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Utica, NY USA

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But you don't seem to question to learn,
Some people feel that way and some people don't.

Some people would like to question the gods here on RR but see the repercussions for doing so. I'm their surrogate. It's only a question or in most cases a discussion. If people don't want to answer my questions that is their choice. I don't see how that makes me the bad guy for asking the question or God forbid disagreeing with an expert.
How about you actually buy one of Al's engines, put it in your helicopter, test it's power and reliability,
What the heck would that prove? Would this have anything to do with what I discussed?

Ace
What could be more fun?

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01-19-2010 05:53 PM  8 years agoPost 58
Toxic Al

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chuluota, Fl

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first i would like like to say I am not or do I consider myself a god here on RR and I am not always correct. I was asked by some of my customers and friends to show myself here more and educate new gas guys and old so we can move the hobby foward. the problem I have some guys here don't want to learn they try poke holes in explinations make others look inferior and wrong to make themselves look bigger. I am just a normal guy that happens to love this so much that i have made a 20 year career from building 2 stroke engines.Do I sell engines, yes but that is not my motovation for being on here, if that was the case i would be here all the time with 3,000,000,000 posts.the more i educate pilots the better it is for the hobby.I happen to have the pleasure of having one respected pilot in my town which I have lunch with regularly. We B.S. about heli's and everything that deals with them on a reg basis and I find myself being the student around him, he has been into heli's long before me and I learn from him all the time so it makes me a better pilot. that should be in all our best interests, being better pilots.I don't consider myself better then any of you and those of you who have talked to me on the phone or field know that.Ace , I don't know you but the way you approach a question can seem to puts people on the defensive instead of trying to actually try to understand the answer.
that is what i perceive when I get a reply from you and I really not sure how to take you.anyway I am done with this, i can't type for crud and am sick right now. so I just say peace, toxic Al

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01-19-2010 08:51 PM  8 years agoPost 59
1275mini

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Wirral North West U.K.

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things are hotting up

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01-20-2010 01:44 AM  8 years agoPost 60
AceBird

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Utica, NY USA

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I don't know you but the way you approach a question can seem to puts people on the defensive instead of trying to actually try to understand the answer.
That would be my lack of my ability to expressing myself. It is a common problem that I have always had. I can assure you it is not my intention to put anyone down or build myself up at someones else's expense.

No one gets everything right all the time. I am no exception. Believe it or not I can be swayed from my way of thinking if I understand your comments and see good arguments against my views. But it will not happen based on character brow beating.

Al, you have always made your comments as opinions. I can see you are a likable guy. I wish people on this forum would not take my comments and views as personal threats, they are just ideas.

Ace
What could be more fun?

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