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HomeAircraftHelicopterMain Discussion › Progressing in 3D
10-21-2009 07:27 PM  8 years agoPost 1
FlaG8r

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Florida

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Looking for some advice on advancing in 3D. I've been flying for about 2 years and I find myself doing the same flips, rolls, funnels and tic tocs as I've done for the last year or so. I spoke with Bert Kammerer last weekend at a fly in and he mentioned that you need to get all orientations down first. Backwards flight, inverted flight, inverted piros, etc..Good advice I thought. Another long time flyer told me that sim time is overrated.
Anyone else have anything to add? Thanks.

Life is tough, it's tougher if you're stupid

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10-21-2009 07:29 PM  8 years agoPost 2
VooDooX

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San Francisco Bay Area CA, US (San Mateo)

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pick a move you cannot do right now... then sit in front of the Sim for several hours and JUST try that move ONLY you will get it eventually also fly all orientations on the sim also then just pick a new move and repeat thats what i did

Velocity 50 "99.9999999999999% of an atom is empty space." also 01001000 01001001

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10-21-2009 09:11 PM  8 years agoPost 3
TJinGuy

rrProfessor

Socorro, NM - USA

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I am in a similar but slightly lower position. I am just starting to get into inverted and backward flight. I think I personally need to work on all upright and inverted orientations until I can fly in any direction, in any orientation without hesitation. After that I see tying the tail to cyclic being next. I can't see a way to do it yet and maybe it is learned through trial and error. Anyhow once you can do that then you can do things like piro flips, piro-circles, piro-loops, piro collective+cyclic moves like rainbows with piros thrown in and so on.

After that I am not sure what there is. Possibly there is nothing new to learn specifically, you just have to smooth everything out.

- Chris

Team New Mexico
TJinTech

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10-21-2009 09:31 PM  8 years agoPost 4
Sonic88

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Murfreesboro, TN

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pick a move you cannot do right now... then sit in front of the Sim for several hours and JUST try that move ONLY
That is what I do alot. Just forcing yourself to learn that single move will build other skills as well. Stick time is stick time. When I learned tic tocs, my collective management on all moves improved greatly. It all kind of plays off each other. But yea if I dont know what to do, I will pick something and sit there and try it until I get it or go nuts. Last time I chose "Big Bens" which is like smooth, fluid 4 point tic toc. A little ambitous on my part. But then I started just trying regular 4-point tic tocs and was getting alittle closer. I can do a 2 point tic toc right now.

Procrastinators of the world unite ... tomorrow.
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10-21-2009 09:41 PM  8 years agoPost 5
chopper_crazy

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Delphos, Ohio

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I too have learned that by practicing on the sim a particular move over and over again, you actually will learn several moves. practice makes perfect. Each 3D move actually builds on previous ones.

It's a complex, costly, glow powered anti-gravity machine!

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10-21-2009 09:55 PM  8 years agoPost 6
holzback

rrKey Veteran

noblesville IN United States

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Another long time flyer told me that sim time is overrated

not hardly. yes many asspects are easier, but there are many other things that you gain from a sim. to many think they spend a lot of time on the sim, "a lot of time" is a oppionion.
sim time is kinda like working out, you have to dedicate time to do it no questions asked. not for a month, but every month to get results and to keep them. make goals of 5+ hours a week and keep them. no one wants to sit there for hours trying something they cant get, but, it is a effort that takes hours that reach into the thousands.

you aint crashin you aint learnin

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10-21-2009 10:39 PM  8 years agoPost 7
VooDooX

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San Francisco Bay Area CA, US (San Mateo)

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ALSO sim time is time you spend actually doing a move while goofing off doesn't really build much skill although you do get some skill by goofing off you have to really focus and say to yourself im gonna try this one move and THATS ALL no goofing off doing other stuff till your get it once you get it then do all your orientations in a hover then you can log off and you will actually be really happy

Velocity 50 "99.9999999999999% of an atom is empty space." also 01001000 01001001

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10-22-2009 12:08 AM  8 years agoPost 8
rcjon

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Macon, GA

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FlaG8r,

I'm close to you on the learning curve. I'm getting pretty good at tail first and inverted circuits. I occasionally do tail first inverted circuits but they still scare me. A month or two ago I was at the point you seem to be at - wondering what can I do next? I was getting bored with what I could do and scared to go further. I dunno what happened, but I kinda broke through that and found several "next steps" that I could work on without too much danger to take my skills to a higher level, both on the sim and ITRW.

These are the things I am working on now that make me want to go burn fuel:

Fly a circuit (circle) at the same altitude and on the same path.
Slow stationary piro-ing hover. (Harder than I thought)
Hover and piro to all points of the compass, upright and inverted.
Roll and pitch flips w/o gaining or losing altitude.
Piro from nose first to tail first while flying a circuit.
Roll from upright to inverted in a circuit.

Hope this gives you some ideas. I fly the sim every morning before work. I always have a particular move that I am working on.

Ask your doctor if your heart is healthy enough for Radio Control Helicoptering.

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10-22-2009 01:06 AM  8 years agoPost 9
itsjojo

rrKey Veteran

North East Pennnsylvania

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Another sim guy her too. I keep a list of moves/tricks that I want to learn. I fly them 10 minutes per trick several time a week. Keep at them, and soon they feel some what comfortable. I call the sim "learning the sticks". This included the fine tough we need to fly the real thing. My belief is that if you can't fly it in the sim you won't be able to fly it on the Rc heli.
Jojo

JoJo
Foreseeing My Flybarless Future!

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10-22-2009 01:14 AM  8 years agoPost 10
Ghostrider

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San Diego, CA

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Not taking anything away from the sim but you need to practice at the field.

Many times we go to the field and do all the moves we know how to do so that if anybody is watching, we "may" impress them. Forget about all that!

Go to the field and practice one or two particular things you are trying to learn how to do. Once you get comfortable with it, you will add it to your routine.

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10-22-2009 01:14 AM  8 years agoPost 11
Eco8gator

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Palm Beach, FL

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Practice what your trying to learn on the sim...dont just waste time and fly on the sim if you know what I mean.

Get yourself a practice heli that doesnt dent the wallet to bad. You dont want to be scared of your practice machine.

Bert's right, learn the orientations first.

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10-22-2009 01:51 AM  8 years agoPost 12
fenderstrat

rrProfessor

Aston,Pa

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every funfly I have been to i get to pick the brain of atleast 1 or 2 pros and every single one has said learn all orientations of hover and upright and inverted flight before you start going onto the hardcore 3d stuff

I took this advice and while i may be moving slower than some of the guys who learned to tail in hover than tic tocs.it is comming together nice and now that i have the confidence to save the heli no matter how it sits.I have far less fear when trying new stuff.and the new stuff seems to be comming faster and easier now too

But I was told this.if you just learn a series of tricks thats all your flying will be, a trick,re situate,next manuver,re situate ect.But if you learn to hover and fly in all orientations first you will be able to do TRANSITIONS,and this will give your flying a smooth and graceful quality as you move from manuver to manuver.and the icing is less crashes

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10-22-2009 02:04 AM  8 years agoPost 13
rcjon

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Macon, GA

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if you just learn a series of tricks thats all your flying will be, a trick,re situate,next manuver,re situate ect.But if you learn to hover and fly in all orientations first you will be able to do TRANSITIONS,and this will give your flying a smooth and graceful quality as you move from manuver to manuver.and the icing is less crashes
That sounds like good advice. I'm getting to the point where if I screw a move up and the heli comes out moving tail first, for example, I just fly tail first for a bit.
Many times we go to the field and do all the moves we know how to do so that if anybody is watching, we "may" impress them. Forget about all that!
I do a lot of flying (and almost all of my learning) flying when noone else is around. At my club field we have almost no other heli flying so I don't learn much there.

Ask your doctor if your heart is healthy enough for Radio Control Helicoptering.

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10-22-2009 02:30 PM  8 years agoPost 14
darkfa8

rrElite Veteran

Brick, NJ - USA

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i am no pro, but i have a few suggestions:

1. use the sim to practice orientations as much as possible, it's cheap and you can, depending on environment really focus on what you're doing without much distraction (other pilots, buddies joking with you, etc.)

2. mix up your orientation training with circuits and autos, this will help break-up the monotony of hovering inverted for several minutes straight, etc.

3. experiment with 3D moves, check out http://www.runryder.com/t490765p1/?top=1256217865

watch the videos, watch the stick movements and start fiddling with them

4. start transitioning your sim work onto the real heli. Be aware that the real model will react differently than the sim due to, but not limited to:
- wind
- throttle/collective response (resolved by proper collective management)
- roll/flip rate
- model weight
- fear (big one)

5. about the fear thing, it can be hard to overcome, some ideas on how to help:
- on the sim, do whatever you can to save the model instead of crashing and restarting
- if money allows, build a second identical real model as a back-up
- build up a cache of spare parts so you're down time is potentially lessened
- practice on buddy box with a more experienced pilot who can save you when you need to bail
- fly during the day in good light so you can see the model well
- practice calming techniques before your flight (think of something that makes you happy (gf, wife, beach, etc.), focus on that, take some deep breaths and get on with your flight

hope some of this helps. now i just need to get on with practicing what i preach more often

- Dan Goldstein
Team Revolectrix

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10-22-2009 03:40 PM  8 years agoPost 15
Aaron29

rrProfessor

USA

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Return to the basics. Everyone passes by them in an attempt to find the shortcut to glory. But there is no shortcut.

Work on hovering in all orientations, upright and inverted. Nose in, side in, tail in, quartering tail in. All orientations.

Work on smoothness and learn collective management. Sometimes flying an underpowered model on the sim or real life will teach you much about how you must finesse the collective.

There is no shortcut to glory, everyone must learn the basics. Most of us skip them and try to go right to flips and stuff. But as the OP found out, eventually those omissions in basics show up.

Most of us learn to fly way out of sequence, going into FF too early and aero too early.

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10-22-2009 05:57 PM  8 years agoPost 16
Bundian

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Fort Lauderdale, FL USA

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I've had the same issues before, my goal is to learn a new move during the week on the sim and try it on the weekend when I fly.
Oh yeah and get the Phoenix sim because that's my favorie!

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10-22-2009 06:01 PM  8 years agoPost 17
Foz

rrApprentice

Earth

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I've got to agree with Fenderstrat and Aaron29. I've been taking the slow track myself lately and now rarely crash because I can bail out from most orientations. Before I used to try to fly past my ability and would crash all the time. I am enjoying the hobby more now. What I find most helpful when trying to get better at anything is to practice with a purpose. Don't just go out and fly randomly, work on something specific. I think a mix of sim and the real thing is good. Just my opinion.

Foz

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10-22-2009 07:21 PM  8 years agoPost 18
QuantumPSI

rrElite Veteran

Atlanta, GA

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I just wanna say that there are skills to be gained from flying randomly. I "learned" how to do funnels just flying randomly one day. I had never practiced them before and one day it just clicked. It was more of I REALIZED I could do funnels (I've always known the stick movements, but I never actually tried them). It's good to practice certain moves, but flying around randomly, you'll discover what you're truly capable of. Many "tricks" I've learned came about from "flying randomly". The tricks that you practice become stepping stones and the more you do them, the more they become innate. And when they become innate, when you fly "randomly", those innate abilities come out. Like just now, I just came back from flying. I have dedicated VERY LITTLE time to learn tic tocs but I do them all the time in my flying. Well today, I "DISCOVERED" that now I can do tic tocs at eye level right in front of me with my 450. What's more is that, I can even move it around. I have NEVER explicitly practiced this. All I'm saying is, flying randomly IS beneficial as well. It teaches you transitions and you discover what you are truly capable (of course, I mean flying in a controlled manner )

Oh and I also did some really low (like 4 inches from the ground) and FAST inverted passes too. Never done that before either. Maybe I just had a good day today...

...now where was I, dh/dt = BS-dx/dt
I will fly you forever... till earth do us part

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10-22-2009 08:19 PM  8 years agoPost 19
Foz

rrApprentice

Earth

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I see your point Quantum. Kind of like jamming with a band, you just sort of stumble upon stuff. I was thinking more about building fundamentals with the "practice with a purpose" thing. I'm am also all for going out and experimenting. I just think that the experimenting can be less of a hit to your wallet if you get most of the basics down first. Congrats on the low inverted pass.

Foz

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