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10-20-2009 04:47 AM  8 years agoPost 481
Gearhead

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never mind

Jim
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10-20-2009 05:06 AM  8 years agoPost 482
Gearhead

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RC/helicopman,,

many scientist today now believe there are as many as 11 different Dimension /Universes,, they call these Dimensions "Membranes",, in-short they think if these Membranes happen to bump together they will spark a new Membrane or Universes,,

to get a better answer see the links and read read read,,

http://deoxy.org/branes.htm

http://www.google.com/#hl=en&source...807e9ccc08a197a

Jim
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10-20-2009 05:18 AM  8 years agoPost 483
Gearhead

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a quote from this link,, "Because we have no practical experience of things without beginnings, in our human pride we conclude that no such thing can possibly exist"

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/In_the_%2...has_a_beginning

Jim
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10-20-2009 06:28 AM  8 years agoPost 484
702nitro

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I would like to know the answer to my question as to how such a complex entity as the Universe came into existence on it's own accord, whether it is from Gball or Nitro or anyone else.
If you can accept that God can exists without cause, then wouldn't it be fair to say that the 'Universe itself' can exists without it as well?

The issue with the Judeo Christian God(being without cause and the primary trigger) for causing the chain of events that lead to the Big Bang, puts a quesition on the mortality or the usefulness of God in proceeding chain of events. So it is plausible to say, considering cause-effect, that God may not exists anymore!!!! --that he/it served its purpose, and all religous efforts are futile.

On the other hand we have a universe that exists without cause.The 'universe without cause', doesn't fall victim to the 'domino effect'.
Now you are reverting to circular arguments. Whether I believe in evolution or don't believe in evolution should have no bearing on the question of explaining how a very complex Universe could come into existence without a first cause
What are you talking about??? Why would it not! Your bible clearly states he created Man out of dust..Adam and Eve using an extra rib from Adam. So if you believe in the bible, the theory of evolution would be a joke to you.

The problem is you still haven't answer my previous questions, on the legitimacy of the fossil findings scientists are finding which they believe are the 'missing links' in our evolutionary transformation to modern day homosapiens?

Do you consider HomoErectus human? Did they have a soul? Were homoerectus a beta version?

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10-20-2009 06:49 AM  8 years agoPost 485
RC/helicopman

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Wasp
Are you kidding me? I know beyond a doubt that you can look up all kinds of answers on the internet from people trying to come up with complex answers, but even you will have to agree that your answer is ONLY an unproven and in my opinion, highly speculative wild theory.

It is certainly not in the category of the earth was flat and now it has been proven to be round.
If you look at your question carefully, you will notice that you are setting down an inviolable condition, or paradigm, before one has a chance to answer. Your question, ages in the future, may very well sound like this question today: "How can the world be a globe when the world is flat?" Because we have no practical experience of things without beginnings, in our human pride we conclude that no such thing can possibly exist.
The first answer on the page doesn't seem to make sense.
You then join in the ring of people by entering at a certain point. Once you become part of the moving circle of dancers you can no longer pick out the exact point of your entry into the circle.
It is a fact that scientist have reach the conclusion that the Universe had a beginning, but that is not the only point to be made here. I have visited Mt. Palomar observatory and in the 1920's Astronomers used this telescope to help discovered a remarkable fact. When galactic light was passed through a prism, the light waves were seen to be stretched, indicating motion away from us at great speed. The more distant a galaxy, the faster it appeared to be receding. That points to an expanding universe, not a static Universe!

Something must have started the process a force powerful enough to overcome the immense gravity of the entire Universe.

Most scientists trace the universe back to a very small, dense beginning (a singularity), you cannot avoid this key issue. If at some point in the past, the Universe was once close to a singular state of infinitely small size and infinite density, we have to ask what was there before and what was outside the Universe. Membranes bumping into each other !!!!???

Also think about this fact, There is a strong inclination that this implies more than just a source of vast energy. Foresight and intelligence are also needed because the rate of expansion seems very finely tuned. If the Universe had expanded one million millionth part faster, then all the material in the Universe would have dispersed by now. However, if it had been a million millionth part slower, then gravitational forces would have caused the Universe to collapse within the first thousand million years or so of its existence.

What does this mean Wasp, there would have been no long-lived stars and therefore NO life. But we do have life, we are alive.

There are also so, so, many other variables and equations that absolutely show that the universe could not have just spring into existence. It not just the big bang and the acceleration of the Universe in to it's present form over billions of years, but it is the mind boggling complexity and fine tuning of the Universe. Membranes bumping into each other does not explain this.
Even the web page you sighted says: Our entire three-dimensional universe could be just a thin membrane in the full space of dimensions.
Can experts now explain the origin of the universe? Many scientists, uncomfortable with the idea that the universe was created by a higher intelligence, speculate that by some mechanism it created itself out of nothing. Does that really sound reasonable Wasp?

Speculations have usually involve some variation of a theory such as the inflationary universe model conceived in 1979 by physicist Alan Guth.

But later, Dr. Guth admitted that his theory "does not explain how the universe arose from nothing."

Also Dr. Andrei Linde was even more explicit in a Scientific American article, entitled "Explaining this initial singularity—where and when it all began—still remains the most intractable problem of modern cosmology." All unproven WILD theories. I have said this before and I will say it again. It takes more faith to believe in nothing then it does to believe in something, or maybe I should rephrase this statement to say it takes more faith to believe in these theories then it does to believe in a Universe created by a creator.

Also, here is another question for you Wasp, if there are three-dimensional universes bumping into each other. What is causing this bumping??????

Finally, I can only accept that God can exist without a cause if he is infinite. If Scientist had come to the conclusion that the Universe was infinite then I could accept that it did not need a cause. But here is the undisputable logic. Anything that has a beginning has to have a cause. The universe had a beginning, therefore it had to have a cause.

I believe the Bible is accurate when it says that God did not have a beginning, otherwise he would have to have a cause, thus the chicken and the egg argument.

But like I said, that is only the beginning of the problem, it is not just the beginning, it is also the complexity of the universe that also shows that there had to be an intelligent designer.

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10-20-2009 07:00 AM  8 years agoPost 486
702nitro

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RC/Helicopman

If you feel that the Bible provides such knowledge, may I suggest you pick a book up called "The Epic of Gilgamesh".

I believe you'll truly love this book, since it parallels the Bible so very closely.

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10-20-2009 07:21 AM  8 years agoPost 487
RC/helicopman

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I am familiar with "Gilgamesh." I would tell you where these legends of Gilgamesh, Hercules, Thor and other Norse and Greek mythology started but you probably wouldn't believe me.

But thanks for the suggestion anyway. However, not to belittle you or your points, but what are you basing your statement that the new testament was written a hundred years after Christ died. I mean, I would really like to know, maybe you read something or saw something on a web page somewhere. You can PM me with your answer if you would like. I am just curious to know. However you can answer that question tomorrow because it is bed time for me.

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10-20-2009 12:22 PM  8 years agoPost 488
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RC/helicopman,,

you asked so I told you what many Scientist and Physicist now come to believe, I never said it was fact, but I now see you know more, a god made it, so the Universe is equivalent to a Test Tube...

Jim
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10-20-2009 12:28 PM  8 years agoPost 489
davehour

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As we all go stating our facts to answer the question if God exist or not, we almost end the same way.

Simple enough, we are dealing with something the human can't explain. HUMAN MIND IS FINITE, so the power of knowledge. Why there are so many things that exist unexplainable, besides dealing with the topic if God exist or not?

Think for a moment; what would be everything without the existence of us, universe, etc. What would then we end with? Even, when we say we think, "thinking" has a meaning because we, the humans, exist and we do think, but if we wouldn't exist,then what would be whatever is left? If you try to see that in your mind, you end in an endless and unexplainable state.

This is why the Bible states us "leave the mysteries to God and just have faith in his word". Many of the most known Atheist and anti-Christ people comes when they get into the "searching of the proof" or the why of everything, just to end lost.

Take a look at the famous people; Millionaires, artists, celebrities, etc, many of them end or live almost miserable lives in terms of happiness, even with all the power and money they have; they aren't happy. For example, see how Michael Jackson died. With all my respect to his case, he died almost broken, and whatever the real reason of his death was, we all know it wasn't the best. And, once in his life, Michael had so much money, he apparently had the world on his hands for many years. The same has happened to many celebrities. See how the "Joker" of Batman Knight Rider" edition ( I guess that's the title of the film) died; overdoes of.... anti-depressant, or.... Guys, these people aren't happy. A "normal" person is for sure happier
than most of the famous and rich people in the Earth.

It's simply enough for me to believe God exist, and you can be sure I don't get into any trouble doing so; in fact, it's the most secure feeling that I have, and if you are doing his will, and live the way he wants, you'll feel secure, even about death. You won't be afraid of death, as ALL of the non believers are.

In addition, think about what "eternal" means. Think about it for a while: You'll probably end even not understanding or having it clear in your mind.

As I stated in my previous posts in this topic, and here are the links if you would like to take a look at them,

http://runryder.com/t545872p9/?p=45...p=1256036952#RR

http://runryder.com/t545872p13/?p=4...p=1256037102#RR

the non believer can't prove that God doesn't exist.

God is the owner of everything: The Creator, and He does the way He wants because He is what He is, God.

And as said in the previous posts, I've had experiences with God, unexplainable to me, but that enforce my faith on him.

The closer you're willing to be to God, doing his will, He will reveals to you the way He wants (unique), and you'll start to experiences "the unexplainable things" that only a beautiful, fair and loving God can make happen.

Simply stated, what God wants from us to do is what would make us happy. He even doesn't ask something for him other than doing his will and praise him. All he ask is beneficial to us.

Thank you very much.

David

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10-20-2009 02:35 PM  8 years agoPost 490
1stPlace

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You won't be afraid of death, as ALL of the non believers are.
No one can prove a negative.
You won't be afraid of death, as ALL of the non believers are.
Why would you say that? I don't fear death, and I certainly don't believe in the God of the Bible.
A "normal" person is for sure happier than most of the famous and rich people in the Earth.
Because a handful of them are miserable, you think that most are miserable? I work for a few ultra wealthy people, a few movie stars, and lesser known celebrities. Every one of them that I know, is a very happy person.
Simply stated, what God wants from us to do is what would make us happy.
If that's true, than why would millionaires, artists and celebrities be miserable? Are they not doing what makes them happy?
He even doesn't ask something for him other than doing his will and praise him.
The human mind cannot fathom what God is, let alone what he wants.

Diejenigen, die nicht lernen aus den Fehlern der Vergangenheit bestimmt sind, zu wiederholen.

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10-20-2009 02:35 PM  8 years agoPost 491
1stPlace

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Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear.

-Thomas Jefferson

Diejenigen, die nicht lernen aus den Fehlern der Vergangenheit bestimmt sind, zu wiederholen.

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10-20-2009 03:12 PM  8 years agoPost 492
RC/helicopman

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The rest of the Story
Interesting quote 1st Place. I have been to the Jefferson Memorial in Washington D.C. and after hearing about Jefferson's skeptical beliefs, I was surprise to see the following quote.

http://www.monticello.org/reports/quotes/memorial.html#
Almighty God hath created the mind free. All attempts to influence it by temporal punishments or burthens . . . are a departure from the plan of the Holy Author of our religion . . . No man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship or ministry or shall otherwise suffer on account of his religious opinions or belief, but all men shall be free to profess and by argument to maintain, their opinions in matters of religion. I know but one code of morality for men whether acting singly or collectively."

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10-20-2009 03:13 PM  8 years agoPost 493
1stPlace

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Since Jefferson edited the Bible by removing what the Four Evangelists had written, and ended his version with the death of Jesus, rather than the resurrection, did God punish him, and how was he punished?

Revelation 22:18-9
For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and the things which are written in this book.

Diejenigen, die nicht lernen aus den Fehlern der Vergangenheit bestimmt sind, zu wiederholen.

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10-20-2009 03:16 PM  8 years agoPost 494
RC/helicopman

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Jefferson also said this:
"We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights, among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, that to secure these rights governments are instituted among men.

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10-20-2009 05:42 PM  8 years agoPost 495
702nitro

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the non believer can't prove that God doesn't exist.
Here we go again! The burden of proof is on you to prove that God does exists, not the other way around. Non of you have provided any proof yet.You all dismiss evolution and revert to a book to provide evidence. "Ohh John said this, or Moses said that.." In the end, it is Theist who are struggling to explain how God works. Why do you think their are so many Theists who literally believe in what the Bible says, while others believe some of what happened in the Bible occcured, while at the same time believing the earth wasn't created in 7 days and evolution happened? Because the bible has never been clear and never will.

If the Bible is God then it has to be absolute. When you're driving on the street and see a sign that says "Maximum speed limit 45mph" is that
open to interpretation? NO, because as with all laws it makes clear and specific of what it is.

-----
This thread has been blessed

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10-20-2009 06:29 PM  8 years agoPost 496
STR8HUCKIN

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You are also making statements and offering zero proof. If you are familiar with debating and discussing different points of view, then you would realize that whom ever makes the positive ascertain is responsible for providing the proof.
How can you possibly ask for proof or facts? We are talking about GOD here. What facts have you brought to the table besides "the bible says this" "the bible" " god said" .

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10-20-2009 06:59 PM  8 years agoPost 497
Billme

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Oh how the heathen rage! hehe Even if presented as proof, you would not except it...
It is a fact that letters have been approved as evidence in court of law..
Since the letters of Pilate, and the Roman Emperor have been documented, I'm sure here, it will be thrown out...

Letter of Pilate to Tiberius

The Letter of Pontius Pilate, Which He Wrote to the Roman Emperor, Concerning Our Lord Jesus Christ.

Pontius Pilate to Tiberius Cæsar the emperor, greeting.

Upon Jesus Christ, whose case I had clearly set forth to you in my last, at length by the will of the people a bitter punishment has been inflicted, myself being in a sort unwilling and rather afraid. A man, by Hercules, so pious and strict, no age has ever had nor will have. But wonderful were the efforts of the people themselves, and the unanimity of all the scribes and chief men and elders, to crucify this ambassador of truth, notwithstanding that their own prophets, and after our manner the sibyls, warned them against it: and supernatural signs appeared while he was hanging, and, in the opinion of philosophers, threatened destruction to the whole world. His disciples are flourishing, in their work and the regulation of their lives not belying their master; yea, in his name most beneficent. Had I not been afraid of the rising of a sedition among the people, who were just on the point of breaking out, perhaps this man would still have been alive to us; although, urged more by fidelity to your dignity than induced by my own wishes, I did not according to my strength resist that innocent blood free from the whole charge brought against it, but unjustly, through the malignity of men, should be sold and suffer, yet, as the Scriptures signify, to their own destruction. Farewell. 28th March.

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10-20-2009 08:27 PM  8 years agoPost 498
RC/helicopman

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How can you possibly ask for proof or facts? We are talking about GOD here. What facts have you brought to the table besides "the bible says this" "the bible" " god said" .
I try not to make a lot of ascertains, therefore, I only give reasons and evidence why I do believe and put faith in the the existence of a God rather then not putting faith in nothing at all.

However, it stands to reason that man, the earth and the Universe came into existence, so I just examine the most logical reasons for that existence and to me, that leads to the existence of a God. But evidently you didn't accept as proof my statements about the complexity of the Universe. I can post a lot more information showing the logically reasons that many people believe the Universe has an intelligent creator, but I do have more things to do then constantly monitor this forum.

Furthermore, Billme does make a good point, the Bible itself is proof to many, many, people and there will always be people that doubt almost anything.

I am sure there are people that doubt that man every went to the moon. So I do not became adversely effected when someone does not believe what I feel is ample reason to put faith in the existence of God.

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10-20-2009 08:48 PM  8 years agoPost 499
RC/helicopman

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The problem is you still haven't answer my previous questions, on the legitimacy of the fossil findings scientists are finding which they believe are the 'missing links' in our evolutionary transformation to modern day homosapiens?

Do you consider HomoErectus human? Did they have a soul? Were homoerectus a beta version?
Nitro, I did not see your comments from the above post until just now, however, I got a few things I need to take care of today but rest assured I will get back to you with an answer to your question!

I will try not to dodge your question like you did mine about Moses living to be 900 years old.

If I don't have a reasonable answer for you, I don't mind saying I don't know!

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10-20-2009 09:17 PM  8 years agoPost 500
STR8HUCKIN

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But evidently you didn't accept as proof my statements about the complexity of the Universe. I can post a lot more information showing the logically reasons that many people believe the Universe has an intelligent creator, but I do have more things to do then constantly monitor this forum.

.
So let me get this srtaight, You keep demanding some sort of factual proof from us. But yet you expect us to just accept your non sense about the complexity of the universe?? Your excuse for not presenting facts is that you don't have the time to constantly montitor the forum, yet you reply more in this thread than anyone?
I'm not meaning this to be offensive but dude, you must be crazy.
You expect us to just eat up your BS like it's unchallenged fact.

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