RunRyder RC
WATCH
 2 pages [ <<    <    ( 1 )     2     NEXT    >> ] 1202 views Post Reply
Home🌌Off Topics🌌Off Topics News & Politics › Mandated insurance IS unconstitutional !
09-19-2009 03:10 PM  11 years ago
Topic Vote0Post 1
2slow

rrNovice

Georgia

MyPosts All Forum Topic
Mandated insurance IS unconstitutional !
We The People need to file a class action law suit !

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB100...3109362480.html
SHARE  PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
09-19-2009 03:49 PM  11 years ago
fla heli boy

rrElite Veteran

cape coral, florida

MyPosts All Forum Topic
always my contention that social security falls under the same umbrella.
SHARE  PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
09-19-2009 06:21 PM  11 years ago
Damper

rrVeteran

Point Blank TX USA

MyPosts All Forum Topic
You think we can form a group to finance a law firm and lobbist who can talk to this people that the American people do not want this kind of foolish gov't ideology? Things are getting out of hand with corrupt gov't. and law.Full Throttle Spooning Leads To Forking
SHARE  PM  EMAIL  Attn:RR  Quote
09-19-2009 07:51 PM  11 years ago
Quandumphone

rrApprentice

Yuma, AZ

MyPosts All Forum Topic
For me, it all comes down to what level of health we as a society are willing to fund for those that cannot afford it or currently don't want it. If we decide that the right thing is to provide all forms of care from diagnosis to full recovery, then mandatory insurance is probably the right way to go. I say that because we need to recoup as much as we can to pay for it, even though it will still be at a loss to the taxpayers. This hurts me to say because it also comes at the expense of certain freedoms.

Contrary to what my conservative friends would say, a rudimentary form of public coverage would be okay as long as it is no better than the worst private insurance coverage. It needs to be the Pinto and not the Cadillac. In this case of public coverage, rationing and long lines are okay. There has to be some incentives and/or restrictions for businesses to not push their employees over to the public coverage.

One of the main problems of public coverage is the flood of people and businesses that will go to that option instead of paying for private insurance. People need to pay for this public coverage too - and that means everybody that's on it. People that can't work can still do community service of some sort to offset the cost. I'm sure we can find something. If health care is going to be a community effort, then paying for it can be too.

We also need to be sure that the idea is to move up to private insurance when the financial opportunity is there. As peoples' financial situations improve, they also get the opportunity to move up from the crappy public coverage to a nicer private plan.
SHARE  PM  EMAIL  Attn:RR  Quote
09-19-2009 08:21 PM  11 years ago
Aaron29

rrProfessor

USA

MyPosts All Forum Topic
10th Amendment.

Check it out.

A federal mandate for insurance would violate it.

The forefathers of this nation wrote the constitution to give a lot of power to the states so that a large tyrannical government could not emerge.

They also wrote the constitution to curtail what the federal government could do. There are INALIENABLE RIGHTS and our forefathers recognized that voters could accidentally vote them away.

They protected our own interests from being lost by majority tyranny. Voters, unknowingly, can vote a tryannical government into power without even realizing it. 49% of the population can be tyrannized by 51%. That is why the consitution has limits on what the government can do. They were trying to protect that 49%.

But the consitution doesn't drive politics. Tyranny is where we are headed unless we understand that the government is not in place to give you anything! It is in place to ensure your individual rights.

And now before you say health care is a right, it cannot be looked at that way! It is a service provided by another HUMAN being. A doctor. To say it is a right is to ENSLAVE the medical profession. This cannot be viewed differently, because in order to get these things, the person at the other end is BEING ENSLAVED by the majority.

It doesn't matter what you consider "the right" thing to do. Today you consider it a "right" to give everyone health care at others' expense. Tomorrow, someone will say everyone has a right to a house. The next day, cars. The next day, jobs. The next day, who knows what else.

It's like the ice cream/cow scenario.

Everyone is voting for ice cream. Politicians promise ice cream to their voters who then are impressed by these promises and vote him in. Sound familiar?

It sounds great. Everyone gets ice cream! Except if you own the cow. Or Lord forbid ARE the cow. Everyone votes for ice cream and the cow can't give ice cream to everyone because it's milked dry.

Before you laugh, what do you think will happen when all the voters vote everything for themselves at the expense of the rich, corporations, etc?

The providers of these things will leave. They will find a country that doesn't vote that way. I am not being dramatic when I say this sort of thing could be the undoing of this country. You cannot enslave the providers.

If the providers leave, you can vote for as much ice cream as you want. But since the COW left, have a good time voting, because there will BE no ice cream despite what that talking head on TV promises. That's because the cow is with it's owner in a country that respects individual ownership. The owner decided that if he paid for the cow and labors and cares for the cow that he should decide where the ice cream goes, and actually maybe get some income from it. The cow feels better too.

Others felt that the owner should be forced to give ice cream from that cow, even though he paid for it and he cares for it. And even though it means everyone will not get a scoop, but like 1/8 a scoop. Be a cow owner for a second. Would you put up with this?

Too many people look at goverment as something to PROVIDE them with things. It's not why government exists. But it is how some politicians gain power. They promise these things to the people. But to keep the promise they upset the free market system, which says I give you something and you give me either money, something in return, or maybe you work for me for a while. That is how it should work. This for that. I give you something and you give me something. Not "I'M TAKING THIS BECAUSE I VOTED FOR IT." Explain to me how it could possibly be fair to get something for free?!

Ever notice that communism fell without a shot fired? But in order to have communism begin you must have a war and killing? Hmm. Food for thought. How is it that you can have capitalism arise without a shot fired, but millions must die for communism to begin?

What seems divinely right? That which must be won by killing or that which can be won by simply idealogically convincing people?

Remember the government cannot give anything to anyone that it does not first take from someone else.
SHARE  PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
09-19-2009 08:33 PM  11 years ago
Quandumphone

rrApprentice

Yuma, AZ

MyPosts All Forum Topic
Oh yeah, believe me, I would much prefer people pay their own way. It's a much stronger way of doing things. I also believe that if people choose to not insure themselves then we don't really need to feel bad about the minimal treatment they might get at the emergency room. People that go to the ER need to pay for that too.

The problem is that the handwriting is on the wall that we're going in another direction, which is a shame. I fear the next election cycle is going to be too late to stop some of these questionable entitlement programs. Stopping them on a constitutional basis is going to take a really long time. If they are going to happen, I want them to be very minimal.
SHARE  PM  EMAIL  Attn:RR  Quote
09-19-2009 08:44 PM  11 years ago
Aaron29

rrProfessor

USA

MyPosts All Forum Topic
The problem is that the handwriting is on the wall that we're going in another direction
It is not on the wall. Write your congressman. Express your views. Hold your REPRESENTATIVE accountable, or you will have no representation.

It is anything but on the wall. Look at the opposition to it and the respect that congress has given that opposition.
SHARE  PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
09-20-2009 01:10 AM  11 years ago
baby uh1

rrVeteran

St. James, Mo.

MyPosts All Forum Topic
Aaron29, You nailed this. We are talking about the difference between living in a prosperous capitalist country or a communist/socialist barely surviving country like North Korea!
You can't eat the steaks and then still get milk from the cow!
Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about!
SHARE  PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
09-20-2009 05:09 AM  11 years ago
Rappy 60

rrVeteran

Paris, France

MyPosts All Forum Topic
For me, it all comes down to what level of health we as a society are willing to fund for those that cannot afford it or currently don't want it.
So what do you do with the people that can afford, but can't get it due to previous conditions. Or people that can't afford it because the premiums are higher than a 1 Million dollar mortgage?
And now before you say health care is a right, it cannot be looked at that way! It is a service provided by another HUMAN being.
So what happens when that Human being says he can't help you because your not insured, and then you die. Isn't life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness also in the constitution.

Don't get me wrong, I believe that we as a nation cannot take from the rich and give it to the poor, I believe that everyone has to work hard in order to succeed, but you have to admit that the health care system in the the US is messed up.

Dale
Load "*",8,1
SHARE  PM  EMAIL  HOMEPAGE  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
09-20-2009 05:48 AM  11 years ago
Aaron29

rrProfessor

USA

MyPosts All Forum Topic
So what happens when that Human being says he can't help you because your not insured, and then you die. Isn't life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness also in the constitution.
Life liberty and pursuit of happiness is actually in the Declaration of Independence. It doesn't show up in the Bill of Rights or anywhere else in the Constitution. The forefathers, when they said you have a right to life, certainly didn't mean socialized health care. They could have implemented it back then in the bill of rights. There were doctors back then. They could have had government mandated health care. They chose not to. I think because they realized that you would essentially be enslaving the population of doctors.

Look at it from the doctor's perspective. He has 10 people to care for and only has time enough to help 8. Of that ten, nine are paying customers and one is not. Who do you treat?

Also, I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but each and every one of us is going to die one day. It cannot be avoided. You cannot legislate your way out of death.

This is the land of freedom. You have to remember that for you to have something provided for you at no additional cost, it has to be taken from someone else. Or the doctors have to work for free. There's no getting around it. Can you imagine going through 8 years of med school and then the government telling you they are mandating a pay cut since socialized health care is costing too much?

Believe me, if we could make ice cream without the cow. We would! A lot of people look at this situation and say that those against healthcare bill are somehow lacking in sympathy. It isn't that. It's that people realize the REALITY, as harsh as it is, of the situation. You have a product=doctors. And you have customers=patients. There is only so much to go around. You can sit there and promise things, but you can't get something for nothing.

Look at the health care system in Canada, Britain. They come here for quicker or better health care. Why would you look at them as a model to emulate?

Then there will be those who say, if there aren't enough doctors we'll just train more! Here's the problem. You have to pay all these extra doctors. Or they will want to cap doctor's pay. What will be their incentive to go through medschool? Long hours, crappy internships, low pay? No way! Or maybe we can make school easier so it's worth the lower pay? Well then I don't have to illustrate that you'd have quack doctors that would be underqualified.

But to say that we'll hire more doctors and pay them the same and it will cost less overall doesn't add up. Doesn't anyone in government learn math in school anymore?
SHARE  PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
09-20-2009 05:50 AM  11 years ago
Aaron29

rrProfessor

USA

MyPosts All Forum Topic
the health care system in the the US is messed up.
Show me where it works flawlessly. The US has the best medicine in the world. And it comes at a price. You want cheaper you get what you pay for.

The other thing is you HAVE to remember that it is not government's responsibility to PROVIDE you with anything. Such thinking is dangerous and will eventually lead to government control over EVERYTHING.

What we should do first is allow interstate competition among the HMO's. That hopefully would allow competition to bring prices down. Start with something like that. Not gigantic sweeping mandates that are cumbersome, expensive, and will eventually be tyrannical.
So what happens when that Human being says he can't help you because your not insured, and then you die.
First of all. No one in this country is EVER denied emergency care. With or without insurance. So your illustration is a bit dramatic and unrealistic.

Second, you have to remember that if you enslave the doctors to help everyone they would be working too much. So one of 2 things would have to happen. Either they would spend less time with each patient, which I don't have to tell you would be poorer overall care. Or they would quit! Then where will you get your health care? You going to pull people off the street to become a doctor? There goes the quality of care.

We will vote ourselves straight into mediocrity like Europe if this health care bill passes. Another shot at the United States. Best country in the world going downhill fast.
SHARE  PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
09-20-2009 06:08 AM  11 years ago
dilberteinstein

rrNovice

texas - USA

MyPosts All Forum Topic
Rappy 60
but you have to admit that the health care system in the the US is messed up.
I don't think our whole health care system is messed up, but parts of it are.

I don't think it's right that:
People are financially wiped out by medical bills.
People are denied coverage because of an existing condition.
Insurance premiums are so high that some people can't afford insurance.
I can't remember the rest right now.

The big problem that I have and many people have is: "fear of our government".

If Obama set about "fixing" the parts that needed fixing in a clear and concise manner, people would be running over each other to jump on the band wagon.

Instead, his bungling has caused an uproar in the whole nation. He has even driven away Democrats in the process.

Now it appears that he can't get the votes needed to pass this bill so he is considering using the reconciliation process which was orginally designed for deficit reduction. This will only require a simple majority and he may be able to get that.
SHARE  PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
09-20-2009 06:14 AM  11 years ago
Aaron29

rrProfessor

USA

MyPosts All Forum Topic
I don't think it's right that:
People are financially wiped out by medical bills.
People are denied coverage because of an existing condition.
Insurance premiums are so high that some people can't afford insurance.
I can't remember the rest right now.
No it isn't right. But just because it isn't right doesn't mean that it can be fixed. The proposals on the table ignore the obvious problems.

Notice ALL THREE of your complaints are cost driven.

People are financially wiped out by medical bills because medical care is expensive. You could argue that insurance should cover more. But then insurance would be more expensive, too. Wouldn't it?

People are denied coverage with existing conditions. Well if the insurance company has to cover EVERYONE with prior illness, it would raise the cost of premiums, wouldn't it? They know they will rack up big bills.

Insurance premiums are high because medical care is expensive.

All three of your complaints are inter-related. You can't fix any one or two of them without the third getting out of control.

Again I ask anyone who is pro-health bill...where is this money going to come from if it is suddenly affordable? Nothing in life is free. If you got it free someone else paid for it.
SHARE  PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
09-20-2009 06:28 AM  11 years ago
Aaron29

rrProfessor

USA

MyPosts All Forum Topic
Contrary to what my conservative friends would say, a rudimentary form of public coverage would be okay as long as it is no better than the worst private insurance coverage. It needs to be the Pinto and not the Cadillac. In this case of public coverage, rationing and long lines are okay. There has to be some incentives and/or restrictions for businesses to not push their employees over to the public coverage.
Except your Pinto and long lines would be the proverbial foot in the door. Today, people are upset they don't have the same health care as someone who has insurance.

Tomorrow, they will expect the same level of insurance. So even if you say "oh a little tiny health care bill won't hurt" you might be setting the stage for the whole enchilada.

Look at history. People always vote for more ice cream for themselves. This will eventually lead to more care and more spending. This IS government, afterall!

I'm sure welfare was originally a very good idea. It was probably presented along the same lines as today's health bills are. "people can't afford to put a roof over their head."
SHARE  PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
09-20-2009 07:15 AM  11 years ago
dilberteinstein

rrNovice

texas - USA

MyPosts All Forum Topic
All three of your complaints are inter-related. You can't fix any one or two of them without the third getting out of control.

Again I ask anyone who is pro-health bill...where is this money going to come from if it is suddenly affordable? Nothing in life is free. If you got it free someone else paid for it.
Ahhh, you are right on target...but that doesn't mean we can't improve what we have.

The old saying: "How do you eat an elephant?....one bite at a time. The healthcare system in the US needs to be IMPROVED not SCRAPPED. That doesn't mean we can do all things.

Identify the problems and work toward workable solutions. Obama will propose a healthcare bill that will burden the taxpayer so badly that we will see "limits" on healthcare. That means denied healthcare.

About 45% of the doctors in the US said that they would consider early retirement rather than be subjected to Obama's healthcare...we already have a doctor shortage.

Next add in the illegals that he plans to grant amnesty. Another 12 to 20 million.

Remember that Obama is not trying to improve healthcare, he is trying to gain a "political leg up."

Doctors are telling Obama not to do this....teabaggers, Republicans, town hall meetings, myself, and national polls are all telling Obama NOT to do this. He will anyway.

There are things that can be improved WITHOUT costing tax dollars:

TORT reform
Free market advantages of health insurances (yes the non competitive companies would die - too bad)
Improved FDA approvals for new drugs(Ok this will cost tax dollars)
and so on.
SHARE  PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
09-20-2009 01:20 PM  11 years ago
RayJayJohnsonJr

rrKey Veteran

Midwest

MyPosts All Forum Topic
We're all looking in the distance for a solution, when the answer is right under our noses. FOR PROFIT HEALTH CARE INSURANCE! It has to go!

Here are a couple editorials I found on the AMA's (read American Medical Association) web site.

_____________________________________________________________

Abolish for-profit health plans.
Regarding "Health plans say they'll risk losing members to protect profit margins" (AMNews, May 19): The front-page headline says it all. For the for-profit health insurers human life has no value, only profits matter. What else has to happen for everyone to realize that this is the No. 1 problem facing not only medicine but the country as a whole? These entities are running a triple extortion racket and are holding a gun to the heads of physicians, employers and patients at the same time.

As they drop patients, deny claims and flaunt payment laws, real people's lives are being profoundly harmed and the health of the nation deteriorates. The ranks of the uninsured swell and everyone else has to pay for it. The insurers continue to convert nonprofit plans to for-profit and merge in an act of buying and selling "covered lives."

It is time for the AMA to stand up and shout, "Human life is not a commodity." The AMA needs to take on a more activist role and should be on every news outlet pushing for the end of for-profit health insurers. This should be leading story, front-page news, on every network and in every newspaper. The only business paradigm that could ever match the evil of the current for-profit health insurance system was the institution of slavery, which was abolished 140 years ago.

The AMA and all physicians need to support legislation putting an end to this abomination once and for all. The American people would welcome and recognize the AMA and all doctors as their champion. Right now we're all sellouts with our heads in the sand too worried about our own problems, myself included.

--Neil E. Staib Jr., MD, Seymour, Ind.

Back to top

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Insurance industry taking resources out of our health care system
Regarding "Health plans say they'll risk losing members to protect profit margins" (AMNews, May 19): Your article makes it abundantly clear that the health insurance industry cares mostly for its profits and little for its subscribers. How brazen for WellPoint President and CEO Angela Braly to say, "We will not sacrifice profitability for membership."

The insurance industry is sucking resources out of our health care system in the form of excessive administrative costs, executive salaries, and dividends to stockholders, instead of using premium and investment income to provide health care. How long will our politicians allow themselves to be bought by these special interests? When will they develop the courage to enact meaningful health care reform?

--David Shapiro, MD, Bethel, Conn.

And it's not just For Profit Health Care insurance.
Yes, Wall Street is what drives this country, but in the end, it will be Wall Street that kills it. When there's no more blood to bleed, it will then be over.

-Mark
SHARE  PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
09-20-2009 02:38 PM  11 years ago
baby uh1

rrVeteran

St. James, Mo.

MyPosts All Forum Topic
The insurance industry is sucking resources out of our health care system in the form of excessive administrative costs, executive salaries, and dividends to stockholders, instead of using premium and investment income to provide health care. How long will our politicians allow themselves to be bought by these special interests? When will they develop the courage to enact meaningful health care reform?

--David Shapiro, MD, Bethel, Conn.
IF he thinks that it's bad now wait until the government gets to run it!
I wonder why Dr. Shapiro doesn't work for the VA or for free period?
Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about!
SHARE  PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
09-20-2009 03:44 PM  11 years ago
Aaron29

rrProfessor

USA

MyPosts All Forum Topic
"We will not sacrifice profitability for membership."
People see this and say it must somehow be evil. Remember no one NEEDS medical insurance. You can pay your doctor with a check if you like. It just costs a lot.

The insurance company provides a service that you aren't forced into. (YET) So now, should the insurance company work for free?

All the proposals on the table ignore the money problem. What if someone asked you to show up Monday thru Friday for free?

Wall street IS about profit. This is true. But profit is not evil. It is something humans drive for. Why do YOU get up for work on Monday morning?

If a HMO is not profitable, it will go under, and then where will your precious health care come from? Your own pocket. The way to fix this is to allow competition into the health care industry. Then, the best provider will emerge on its own. People will run from one provider to another if it offers better insurance for less. Then you will see profits and happy customers.

Nothing in life is free. If you got it for free someone else paid for it.
SHARE  PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
09-21-2009 04:53 AM  11 years ago
drdot

rrElite Veteran

So. California, Orange County.

MyPosts All Forum Topic
💎Sustaining Member
fwiw..

Go back to the Roman Empire....Fast forward to the CRA....Ability to vote bread and circus for themselves...Here we go again...The Founding Fathers were far smarter than credit given them....Trite, but true...Freedom is not free....

BC
SHARE  PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
09-21-2009 05:55 AM  11 years ago
Dennis (RIP)

rrApprentice

Oregon

MyPosts All Forum Topic
In any case, I am 63 years old. I have never seen our government as corrupt as it is now.

I speak to quite a few folks my age and older every day that feel the same.

SHARE  PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
WATCH
 2 pages [ <<    <    ( 1 )     2     NEXT    >> ] 1202 views Post Reply
Home🌌Off Topics🌌Off Topics News & Politics › Mandated insurance IS unconstitutional !
Print TOPIC

 7  Topic Subscribe

Thursday, July 29 - 4:56 pm - Copyright © 2000-2021 RunRyder   EMAILEnable Cookies

Login Here
 New Subscriptions 
 Buddies Online