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HomeRC & Power✈️Aircraft🚁HelicopterEngines Plugs Mufflers Fuel › Easily bogging on OS50Hyper with only 2 gallons though it.
09-15-2009 05:02 PM  11 years ago
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labont

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sudbury, ont, canada

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Easily bogging on OS50Hyper with only 2 gallons though it.
I think in total I have maybe 2 or 3 gallons through this motor over the last 1.5 years. As far as break in I'm pretty sure i didn't beat the hell out of it in the first gallon as I was pretty much a noob at the time.

It's a Trex600N and I have those $45 Carbon Pro blades on it. I use a DX7 with a 401/9254 conbo. I am located near Ottawa Ontario. When I was flying it was about 25 celcius and very little humidity.

I was running curves as my multigov flew off into the field and I lost it. I had it disconnected because it was not working. Turns out the magnet lost its magnetism in the fan.... ever see that before? Anyway.. It was bogging with the curves and my idleup was 100-75-100 at one point as I looked or power. I have a carb smart on it and have tried 90, 100 and 110 celsius.

I ordered another multigov and set it ip for 1850-2020 and 2150 head speeds. Even set at 2150 I can still bog it in climb outs and I can hear it taking time to catch back up after I ease off the collective. I doesnt move as fast as I seem to remember it as it would leap off the ground on punch outs. I tried a tic toc and it was never gonna happen... the engine was just bogging so badly. I went into 2050 head speed and I set the pitch curves with 20% knocked off each end in an effort to avoid any power robbing pitch. I am guessing it was 8 degees either way... maybe. The heli was so docile with no 12-12 available but I could still bog it and I tried tic tocs like this and it stil couldnt een manage them at all.

i took the carb apart and cleaned it really well. I checked the o-ring and it looks fine. when i look at the carb right after landing i can see the carbsmart has it a little richer than the 1 1/4 turns out I had for a mid point.

I tried the carbsmart feature in the new multigov pro just to see but there was no difference in power.

The piston and cylinder wall looks fine. There is a copper gasket between the head and cylinder. The ring is shiny in the outside... I seem to remember reading that it is supposed to be dark colored and that if it was shiny it was worn out. I wonder if it is worn. I can see some grit and some dirt that has clung to the fan housing because of the oil residue.... i wonder if it has ingested dirt one too many times and ruined the ring. I did crash it a few times.

So.... anyone have any place I can start to diagnose this lack of power? I am running 30% heli fuel and just installed a new Outrage 50 pipe. Can a worn ring kill the power that much?

Looking forward to everyone's help and suggestions as to where I look first.
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09-15-2009 05:14 PM  11 years ago
USNAviationjay

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Houston Tx USA

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worn ring is the main culprit in lost power..
a worn ring that lets compression go by it is not making power.

I'm sure when you turn this motor over by hand you will feel it has very little compression.
thats not good.

replace the ring as well as either honing or replacing the liner as well.
and then re-break in.
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09-15-2009 05:32 PM  11 years ago
Zaneman007

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Texas - USA

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Tuning?
You do not mention anything about tuning the engine.

Are you running rich?

Are you running lean?

What are your engine temps?

How many turns out are you on the needles?

And how do you now that you didn't beat it up?

The multigov simply keeps the head speed constant. It doesn't have anything to do with the head speed bogging, unless.

Unless... you have it attached to the high end needle?

Need more info.

Replacing the sleeve and the ring will pretty much restore the engine assuming the piston is good, and you break it in properly.
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09-15-2009 06:06 PM  11 years ago
labont

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sudbury, ont, canada

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It actually feels like it has plenty of compression. It doesn't feel like it has any less than it did new when I turned it over by grabbing the fan.

As for tuning I have it at 1 and 1/4 turns out and the slow/idle jet is at 12 o'clock postion. Once I have tuned the needle out to 1 1/4 I put the plastic carbsmart lever on the needle and connect the linkage to the servo. I have set it for 90, 100 and 110 Celsius and I never seem to get any more power. I look to see if the carbsmart is going to one extreme or another and if so, I adjust the needle in that direction and put the arm back on until I see it near 12 oclock postion when I land.

I don't think I abused it during break in.. I can still see honing on the cyl walls with little to no scratches. There is definately compresison though so I am wondering if something else is causing my trouble. I really seems to take its time getting back up to speed after I bog it. And it bogs real bad.

Engine temps I do not know. I will have to get something to measure it with. It start clean and idles clean, spool up is clean and once governed it runs clean.
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09-15-2009 06:17 PM  11 years ago
Aerospire

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Honolulu, HI

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I have no experience with the Outrage 50 pipe but if you have a friend with a Align 50 pipe, give that a try just to see if it makes a difference. I know it works very well with the OS 50 hyper.

To reach the higher headspeeds like 2000+, you really have to have the motor tuned right. Too rich and you will not be hitting them and getting the power you want. Carefully keep leaning out and check backplate temp so it is not too hot.

Your motor cylinder walls should have no scratches. "Little" scratches is not good especially if they are indentions into the metal as your ring cannot fix that. You will lose compression+power.

bob
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09-15-2009 07:31 PM  11 years ago
Zaneman007

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Texas - USA

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One and a quarter turns out on the high end is reasonable, but the low end doesn't sound right.

I just looked at my OS50 and the low end is more like 3 and 9, not 12 O'clock. The low end should be horizontal to the ground.

Do a pinch test:
* start the engine, get it warm, fly around a couple of minutes.
* With the engine at idle pinch the fuel line.
* Count how long it takes before the engine dies.
* It should be a slow count to three, "1..one thousand,2.. one thousand, 3 one thousand."
* If it dies before 3 it is to lean, if it dies after 3 it is to rich.

Unless you are one of those guys with a calibrated finger, I'd recommend a temp gun. I'm not making fun here. I have a friend who can tell you the number of clicks on the high end with the touch of his finger. Me, my finger just burns, and easily. I'd shoot for around 210 after landing with some hard pitch changes when I was using 30% coolpower.

I would also recommend taking the pitch down to plus or minus 10, till you sort this out.

P.S. If you can see the original honing marks (cross hatches) on the sleeve, the engine is not broken in. You may be running the engine too cool?
But, if the marks or scratches are going up and down the sleeve, the sleeve and ring are toast and it is rebuild time.
Old Guys Rule!
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09-15-2009 09:59 PM  11 years ago
labont

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sudbury, ont, canada

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I have not recently touched the back end with the new pipe but a few weeks back I did touch it and it was hot. I had the carb smart at 110 and could only hold my finger there for 1 second. I set it to 90 and ran it again and remember thinking that it cooled down some... but not hold my finger on it for 7 seconds long.

But... all that is all useless now that I have the new pipe and am now using the mixadjust in my new multigov. I will have to start from scratch and figure this out.

I just went through the tank and clunk line and fuel lines to make sure there were no holes or tears. There was the smallest of tears in the clunk line but it was right at the clunk so I can't see it causing any trouble. I replaced it.

I discovered the tail belt drive gear is missing a couple teeth so I have to get another. once that is done I will take it for a flight and measure temp. Where should I measure it from exactly?

Thanks,
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09-16-2009 01:43 AM  11 years ago
Zaneman007

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Texas - USA

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The carb smart is in Celsius, I'm talking Fahrenheit. 100c is approximately 212F

If you have been running the engine hot, it could be damaged. That would explain the loss of power.

I'd recommend tuning the engine without the multigov. And then setting up the multigov, after you have the needles set.

Start with the low end, and then the high end.

Yea, some pipes are better than others, but... you still have to tune the engine, and neither the mulitgov mixadjust nor the outrage pipe will do that for you.
Old Guys Rule!
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09-16-2009 03:12 AM  11 years ago
labont

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sudbury, ont, canada

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Thanks guys...

How is it that the carbsmart won't tune my carb for me though? I assumed that if when I flew hard for a few mins then landed and checked right away to see the needle lever at 12 O'clock that was a good indication that things are working well. Tell me what I am missing... the more I learn the better, I love tinkering and testing.

Thing is... I used the same carbsmart last year for a few flights and I just seem to remember it flying with so much authority. Perhaps not bogging at all if any... It certainly wasn't dying on climb outs like it is now.

I just took the motor out again to have a look at it. All I have done so far is grab the fan assy and turn it by hand. There is certainly plenty of compression when I turn it quickly and it pops back after TDC. I am almost 100% certain this isn't a compression issue.

I am going to tune it without the carbsmart or governor on it. So it's start at 1 and 1/2 turns out, fly for half a tank, land and touch the back plate with my finger. If it's too cool I lean it out a click then repeat until it gets to the point where I can only hold my finger there for 3 seconds? (I thought I had an infrared temp sensor but I do not). Also, what is a good curve to get me in the ball park of 2150 head speed? I have read 100-75-100 is good?
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09-16-2009 04:24 PM  11 years ago
Zaneman007

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Texas - USA

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Break in and tuning.
A carbsmart just attempts to keep the engine temp constant. A gov just attempts to keep the head speed constant.

You still have to tune and break the engine in. There is a process. You have to get the ring to seat in the sleeve. Else, you will not get the power out of the engine and you'll ended up going through engines.

Just trying to help.

My recommendation would be to do a search on tuning engines.

Good luck.
Old Guys Rule!
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09-16-2009 04:31 PM  11 years ago
labont

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sudbury, ont, canada

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I still don't get it

Lets say I am running the carbsmart at 110 and I see that the needle is at the 12 O'Clock position during a fligh.... but I did not tune manually first.

So I take off the carbsmart, tune manually to perfection and re-install the carbsmart... it's just going to put the needle right back to where it had it in the first place, no?
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09-16-2009 06:03 PM  11 years ago
Raffy

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Chicago, Illinois

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The amount of pitch on your flybar paddles can bog your engine when coupled with your main blade pitch.
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09-16-2009 06:10 PM  11 years ago
labont

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sudbury, ont, canada

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On punchouts?
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09-18-2009 04:48 AM  11 years ago
labont

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sudbury, ont, canada

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Any answers to my two above questions? Really want to learn as much as I can.

I took the motor apart again to inspect it thoroughly. I noticed the plastic align fan had two missing fins. I suspect at 18,000 rpm this would cause a serious imbalance. I wonder if this is what caused the magnet too loose it magnetism? I also wonder if the vibration is messing with the governor. It still doesn't explain the lack of power when I was running curves though.

I also found some caked on substance on the seating surface of the head. I have no idea what it is or how it got there. I had this thing apart and cleaned it all up, had about 3 flights and now that hard slud appears. I don't get it.

I had a real good look at the cylinder and it actually looks perfect... and it should with only a few gallons in it. The ring looks ok to me as well.

Too many variables now for me to pin point the exact cause I feel. I have ordered an aluminum fan with new magnets, a new piston ring (just in case) and a new main bearing. Although still smooth turning I see rust has stared to form. ****ty OS bearings.

So gonna replace those parts and break it in for a gallon then see what happens.
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09-21-2009 01:56 PM  11 years ago
labont

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sudbury, ont, canada

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Bump... looking for answers to the above two questions still
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09-21-2009 03:55 PM  11 years ago
Turkana

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Montreal,Quebec , Canada

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O.k
You have to have your engine tunewise in the "Ballpark", If you are happy with it and it is tunes o,k, then you install the carbsmart and do the setup according too the manual. You want to have the most travel so it can regulate the temp best. Once you have set it up set the gain at about 75% and you should be fine.If you do hard moves and you loose power that means the carbsmart is richening your engine alot, you can go from there and take the gain down little by little. I have mine set at 120 Deg and it runs great.
As far as I can remember the t rex 600n fan is so effective that it actually overcools the engine and the carbsmart does not work correctly, or other way round if you tune it the engine will be running so lean and haveing fuel starvation without overheating.Check on RR for that or on T rex tuning.com
I fly my carbsmart at about 70-75% gain, 20% nitro, Mp5 SB , Vibe 50 , set at 120 Deg, my main needle is at 3/4 turn.Since 100 flights it runs like a charm.
You have to tune your engine with the gouvenor switched off!!I also have swash to Throttle mixing activated in my Radio(futaba)all mixes at 20% and it works great.HS is 2000rpm. Hope I could help a bit.

Regards Pete
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09-21-2009 07:22 PM  11 years ago
labont

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sudbury, ont, canada

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Awesome, thanks Turkana.

That procedure is pretty much what I was doing. I usually ended up at 1-1/4 turns out (low needle in mid position) with 30% CoolPower. I understand that as the nitro content gets lower the leaner one's needle will be set. I guess that explains your setting of 3/4 out on 20% ??

I have the carbsmart sensor on the underside of the head where I saw Finless Bob video put it. I suspect this is the area on the head that is the least susceptible to the cooling of the fan making for more stable temps that don’t fluctuate from one extreme to the other. I did have it running last year and as I remember it had plenty of power and the carb smart also seemed to be working flawlessly.

The power loss this season is rather large and all of a sudden, perhaps 45% or more so I assumed whatever was doing would be pretty obvious considering it was almost killing this motor. It could reach the set head speed (slowly) but would die if you asked anything of it. I think I have found the problem now. The only thing I changed over the winter was the housing itself because the original had broken at the exhaust mount from a minor crash. It’s the proper housing so I never considered it could actually be causing the issues but what I found was the little pin that holds the liner in position was only sticking up the smallest amount. I went to pop the head off one day and I noticed that the liner was able to rotate. The pin was not keeping it from turning. I then noticed when I put the head on I would twist it a little to line the screw holes up and the liner was actually moving around as well. Obviously being a two stroke and port timing meaning everything… well I suspect this was major enough to kill so much power and most likely the cause of my troubles.

I have replaced the pin with something else that now holds the liner and head in proper position. I am waiting on a tail drive gear to arrive so I can get back out and test (also ordered a new main bearing and metal fan.) I ordered a new ring as well but I need to know if this indeed was the cause so I will run it with the stock ring that is in there now(practically new anyway with 3 gallons through it.) If the power still sucks real bad I will replace the ring and see what happens from there.

Keep you posted and thanks for the help.
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09-21-2009 07:33 PM  11 years ago
lightningrc

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UK

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I could not get the power out of my Hyper in my 600 , just could not under stand y ? compared to my other model set up identical , I new the Align exhaust rattled but did not relaise it was a problem and how much the exhaust does to the engine not just supply pressure to the fuel tank and lower the noise .

Any way decided to swap the exhaust to another non rattling Align one !!!!! wow what a difference in torque , my flying now looks like ive got good pitch management , was blaming the engine and gov for a while and just excepting it .
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09-21-2009 08:12 PM  11 years ago
Turkana

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Montreal,Quebec , Canada

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I had something similar with a Outrage 50 Pipe. Lots of power in the beginning, then the baffel broke, wich was only noticable when the exhaust was hot. When cold it would not rattle. Well the broken baffel killed my hyper, becasue it overheated, all that after 200 flights. Well I bought a Mp 5 sb and I am not sure if it has as much power but its great quality and simply they last.I had too retune the Hyper from 1 1/4 turns out to 3/4 turns out. But I found out later that the Mp 5 has a much higher backpressure so thats why the extrem difference in needle settings. Anyway the carbsmart does a superb job I just love it. Sometimes a bit fiddling on setup but once setup you really do not have to retune. 60 flights on it and never retuned the engine it just sings. You actually can see it work in flight if you hover and pitchpump a bit, you will see it getting richer and soon afterwards leaning out again. Awsome.Just check if your sensor is o.k or be careful when installing. But from what I read your sensor is in the correct spot. Regards Pete
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09-21-2009 11:06 PM  11 years ago
airdodger

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Johnston USA

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If your bearings are rusted that is most likely the problem, the drag on a bad bearing is pretty high, plus you can't tune the engine properly. On top of that it's akin to running grit through your engine wearing every part, not an ideal situation, especially the ring. You can't check compression turning the engine over by hand, it's the gas pressure from behind the ring that applies most of the pressure to the walls.Chris
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