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HomeRC & Power✈️Aircraft🚁HelicopterFlybarless Rotor Head SystemsOther › Flybarless....Use V-Bar or New Axiom
09-16-2009 10:11 PM  11 years ago
SpeedVision

rrApprentice

Grand Rapids, MI USA

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If Mikado stays stagnant and doesn't adjust to compete with others as this technology matures it will be them that takes the dirt nap.
Sorry, I wasn't clear... Shame on me for blogging with 2 thumbs and a cell phone.

I was referring to price, not innovation or technology. VBar 4.0 and the new MiniBar are recent and noteworthy advancements, so I didn't assume anyone would think they're sitting around drinking beer.

I don't participate in hype, just facts. Until Axiom, Total G and the SK-720 "BRING IT", it's all just hype.

I hope they deliver, we'll all benefit.

So, for now, I'm content to just go fly and let others participate in the product development of their "new kid" choices.
Flybarless - The future was yesterday...you in?
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09-16-2009 10:17 PM  11 years ago
jbdww

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Round Rock, Texas

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Very well said USNAvi. Even thought they are new players to the market does not mean they have not been working on them, or that they are new to the market, these company have been working on there stuff for some time. I have seen Curtis working on his for over two years now. InertaRC has had its current gyro competing with others like the Spartan for a lot less price and doing a great job at it. CYI just lowered there price on the Mini-G, which shows how good quality products can become cheaper.Skids Up
http://www.jbdww.com
http://twitter.com/jbdww/
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09-16-2009 10:41 PM  11 years ago
SpeedVision

rrApprentice

Grand Rapids, MI USA

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The issue is that Mikado has been sealing these things starting out at $800 and now $475, for only $50 worth of parts. I work in the embedded industry and know what things cost. So a $425 profit is a lot for innovation. Plus all of those $$ go to a non USA company.
Not that everyone can see the ignorance in your statement, but I have to call you out and be the bad guy.

$425 in profit, come on..., you know better. Readyheli works for free? Advertising, free? Shownig up if full force at IRCHA, free? Fantastic support, free?

Non-US, strike TWO. Name one flybarless gyro made in the USA? I trust we'll find no foreign items at your house, right?

World market, so deal with it.

Sorry for the rant, but, you know...
Flybarless - The future was yesterday...you in?
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09-16-2009 10:48 PM  11 years ago
jbdww

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Round Rock, Texas

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You are right that they do pay for that, but still. It cost maybe 10% more to develop and produce a 3 axis gyro over a 1 axis gyro, and the cost is way up there.

I did not say it was made in the USA. Of course they are all MADE over seas. I was saying the development and company is not USA.
Skids Up
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09-16-2009 11:36 PM  11 years ago
OICU812

rrMaster

Grande Prairie, Alberta, Canada

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The issue is that Mikado has been sealing these things starting out at $800 and now $475, for only $50 worth of parts. I work in the embedded industry and know what things cost. So a $425 profit is a lot for innovation. Plus all of those $$ go to a non USA company.
You think Total G and others are going to be 100% made in USA? NOT...
...Once upon a time there were Nitros, flybars and frequency pins...
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09-17-2009 12:05 AM  11 years ago
Big Fil

rrKey Veteran

Santa Rosa, CA

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Working for an electronics manufacturer myself I can tell you that the large part of a products end cost is wrapped up in firmware and software development. Not going to say it out loud but there's one way that some companies are able to dramatically lower the cost of their procuct.
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09-17-2009 01:12 AM  11 years ago
Bruce2.5D

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Vancouver, Canada

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>It cost maybe 10% more to develop and produce a 3 axis gyro over a 1 axis gyro...

Sorry to contradict you - but this is absolutely, emphatically, FALSE. A 3-axis unit is much more complex than a single axis gyro, at least to do a half-decent job of it. Count the functions in their software.

The cost of gyros in general is driven by the cost of the MEMs sensors, R&D, and calibration. In all three cases, you get what you pay for. There are only two ways that flybarless systems can be available for much lower prices:

A) More pilots going flybarless
B) IP theft (which will kill off R&D)

Option A will lower prices just as much as option B, without killing off the rapid tech improvement going on.

For comparison, UAV autopilots with a similar sensor-set and software to the gyrobot sell for $5000 each - because the market is so small.
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09-17-2009 02:01 AM  11 years ago
SpeedVision

rrApprentice

Grand Rapids, MI USA

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Hello Bruce2.5D:

Speaking of gyro's, when are you going to demystify the all the rumors surrounding the SK-720?? We'll be nice, you're good people!!

3, 4, 5 or 6 axis? Come on, give us a little love here! I know you're getting a good chuckle reading all the posts with everyones "CSI like" assumptions on what you're really trying to accomplish with your new unit. Just a little insight, please.

We promise we won't tell!!
Flybarless - The future was yesterday...you in?
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09-17-2009 03:08 AM  11 years ago
jbdww

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Round Rock, Texas

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I did NOT say MADE in the USA. I was saying where the company is from.

The point is that everyone makes comments that they will only trust Mikado because they have been around for some time and time in the market means nothing.

My next point is just wait and watch what is going to happen.

Joe
Skids Up
http://www.jbdww.com
http://twitter.com/jbdww/
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09-17-2009 03:47 AM  11 years ago
SpeedVision

rrApprentice

Grand Rapids, MI USA

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The point is that everyone makes comments that they will only trust Mikado because they have been around for some time and time in the market means nothing.
That was your point? I don't get it.

Trust is nothing more than consistency over time. Mikado has proven to be constant and trustworthy for many years. Those that have not earned that trust with their new products need to perform consistently over time and they too might be trusted by their customers. Trust can be given but, ultimately, it's earned.

It's one thing to offer a 3-axis system that works, it's another entirely different challenge to make it work well and truly connect the pilot to what the heli should actually do with the given stick input, without getting in the way (under very demanding circumstances). This is what separates the men from the kids.

I have no doubt that Skookum and Curtis will pull it off and succeed as well. Mikado and Gyrobot have already pulled it off. The others have a lot of work to do to avoid being written off by the court of public opinion...also known as...us.
Flybarless - The future was yesterday...you in?
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09-17-2009 07:10 AM  11 years ago
blade3d

rrElite Veteran

New Jersey USA

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Who is selling the Axiom ?Blade3d
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09-17-2009 07:50 AM  11 years ago
OICU812

rrMaster

Grande Prairie, Alberta, Canada

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jbdww, sorry I misunderstood you sir. Thing to note is that V-Stabi is continuously improving their technology and advancements. There were dozens of beta testors across a period of time well before 4.0 for example was released. Tests and improvements are still ongoing from several pilots and the product will improve continuously as time goes on. Right now what sets the flybarless systems apart is fluid feel and precise control, connection for all axis and user interface, currently V-Stabi is king in that department imho. As you say wait and watch but don't think for a second that the V-Stabi people are sitting on their hands and not on the ball in innovation and advancement in the flybarless realm. ...Once upon a time there were Nitros, flybars and frequency pins...
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09-17-2009 11:20 AM  11 years ago
Ben-T-Spindle

rrProfessor

Central Illinois

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Pro-Bar
What ever happened to the Pro-Bar design. A year ago it was all the talk on several forums and there was some units in the field but I have not heard anything for some time now. Is that project dead or will it be out later this year with all the others?

... BTS
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09-17-2009 11:43 AM  11 years ago
litespeed600

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St. Charles, Missouri

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Looks like some people are using them,

http://runryder.com/t541505p1/

I think these are 2 axis like the SK360?

Tom
Married with 2 kids, I am no stranger to pain!
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09-17-2009 01:16 PM  11 years ago
mharpo

rrApprentice

Louisville, KY

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If someone offers you more for less are you really getting more? There's no magic formula.
Well, actually there is - it's the result of innovation and advances in technology, etc...

Yesterday, for example, I got a 500GB, bus powered 7200 rpm external drive for my MBP for under $200. Just a few months ago, that wouldn't have been possible.

So, should we expect more for less? Of course!
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09-17-2009 03:16 PM  11 years ago
MLINVILLE

rrApprentice

Co

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I thought that this thread was about Vbar vs Axiom? I think that the bigger question is will you try one (Axiom) at the price point they have set? As far as I can see it will out perform me.

Watch at YouTube

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09-17-2009 04:01 PM  11 years ago
Ben-T-Spindle

rrProfessor

Central Illinois

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I think it would be best to wait a few more months until the SK-720 and CY systems are available. That way you will have a wider range to choose from.

I would expect that they will all have excellent performance and that price, service, and user interface would be the main things to consider. For me I like to have a GUI that is in helicopter terms and not technobabble.

... BTS
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09-17-2009 05:42 PM  11 years ago
SpeedVision

rrApprentice

Grand Rapids, MI USA

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Well, actually there is - it's the result of innovation and advances in technology, etc...
My point exactly, innovation and advances in technology are not magic!
Yesterday, for example, I got a 500GB, bus powered 7200 rpm external drive for my MBP for under $200. Just a few months ago, that wouldn't have been possible.

So, should we expect more for less? Of course!
Yes, we've all paid a premium for storage space in the past and now it's a commodity.

Flybarless technology (with a heavy emphasis on software/firmware) is still an emerging niche market and hardly a commodity like consumer electronics.

Hardware, that's easy; just crack open your competitors goods map the components, add your own spin and hire someone in China to put it together for you in large quantities - assuming you’re a thief... That's one of the reasons why some manufacturers go through great pain to scratch out the component numbers on some of their key components.

Software/Firmware on the other hand is not born overnight, heck look at Microsoft. More PhD's than NASA and they still can't get it quite right. Vista anyone? If you choose to be an early adopter of another system, this is likely where you will get bit.

Sooo, to circle back to my original point a few pages back, since Mikado is regarded by most as the leader in this emerging market, they can demand more money for their products than "brand x". This is provided that they deliver positive user experience and they reinvest their profits in the development of their company/products and the community of users.

Almost every time you go to the RR flybarless section what do you see? Mikado marketing. Yes, they do it to capture more market share, but, by doing so, they make it possible for us to have a healthy exchange of information on these forums. That's giving back or reinvesting in their customer. Ever been on Vstabi.de? Little clumsy at first, but the forums are fantastic. It's a direct link to the key players that make the VBar work every day. It also provides a valuable knowledge base for others to learn without the need to ask a question. You don't get that with very many companies! This too is a big investment and a way of giving back to those that were willing to pay more for more in return.

We could continue to talk about this for days. As you can see, I'm a passionate and loyal customer. No, I'm not on the payroll. I'm just trying to return the favor for a great product, great support and their commitment to our hobby.

At the same time, I realize that those that are willing to be an early adopter, will care less about my comments and my loyalty to Mikado. That's ok. We need you guys to help Mikado's competitors to grow! This will cause the market to grow and who knows, maybe the likes of JR and Futaba might put their hat into the ring some day. The big guys might be a blessing or a curse, time will tell.
Flybarless - The future was yesterday...you in?
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09-17-2009 06:30 PM  11 years ago
greger

rrApprentice

Mesa, AZ

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There are lot's of opinions but very few people have experience with more than one brand.. much less 3-5 brands. I think one of people with the most experience is Jag72 (anthony) he has like a mega fleet of all FBL helis and he has tons of hours with V-Bar and Gyrobot.. his choice is Gyrobot. We have some V-Bars at our field but I decided to go with Gyrobot because:

1) single very small box unit (no separate sensor)
2) the field programming box works great
3) the set-up is extremely easy, I have never flow one had no help and flew first flight no problem

I am really enjoying my first FBL, a Gyrobot - but don't narrow your choices down to V-Bar or Axiom
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09-17-2009 08:36 PM  11 years ago
Bruce2.5D

rrApprentice

Vancouver, Canada

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>Hardware, that's easy; just crack open your competitors goods map the components, add your own spin and hire someone in China to put it together for you in large quantities - assuming you’re a thief...
>Software/Firmware on the other hand is not born overnight...

It's worse than that. Some outfits are corrupt enough to crack the processor itself, to get at the core firmware on it. So when, as a software developer, I read about the first version of one outfit's tail gyro being able to load a new firmware file from another company's product - well that's about as likely by chance as a penguin mating with a oak tree. There aren't as many stars in the galaxy as the odds against it. It's like break-and-enter, and then sell the stolen goods openly.
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