RunRyder RC
WATCH
 3 pages [ <<    <     1     ( 2 )     3     NEXT    >> ] 2833 views Post Reply
HomeRC & Power✈️Aircraft🚁HelicopterEngines Plugs Mufflers Fuel › wildcat 30% CY blend
09-21-2009 03:21 AM  11 years ago
CoronaL

rrKey Veteran

Winnebago IL

MyPosts All Forum Topic
^^^
from the man himself
Randy!!! I am the liquor
SHARE  PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
09-21-2009 05:22 PM  11 years ago
TmMugen

rrKey Veteran

Tiny Little Red Dot aka Singapore

MyPosts All Forum Topic
Tune for performance not temperature....There is no one set temperature for a model engine to run at, this is a funtion of power.
I like this quote.
I am a noob flyer from Singapore! Team Nitro Magic
SHARE  PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
09-21-2009 05:40 PM  11 years ago
majestic12

rrApprentice

Avon, CO

MyPosts All Forum Topic
so if tuned for equal performance and CYE runs at 130+C and CP runs at 100C..what would you choose and which is better for your engine? I just have a real hard time getting comfortable running engines that hot..am I being to overly cautious?
TREX 700N Flybarless
HF:STMPNGRND
SHARE  PM  EMAIL  HOMEPAGE  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
09-21-2009 10:13 PM  11 years ago
HeliVIG

rrApprentice

Hearne, TX USA

MyPosts All Forum Topic
CY30 has been tested and run a lot and we have not found any damage to the motors.

I understand why this would concern you, in your view hotter is simply worse. But just because it is hotter does not mean anything is being damaged. As long as the oil is good and the engine runs clean and smooth there is no damage at all to the engine. The best check is to look at the glow plug, piston, and bearings after running the fuel.

When we check our motors they all tend to look new. No discoloration or wear on any of the parts.

Curtis
SHARE  PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
09-22-2009 12:02 AM  11 years ago
rocket_33

rrElite Veteran

Mount Pleasant, Michigan USA

MyPosts All Forum Topic
I have to say that Mr. Youngblood is correct. When I have opened my engines I find that their lubrication package works very well. Bearings look good, piston looks good and I get good life out of my plugs. I switched last year from CP30 to the CY/Wildcat 30. I have burned alot of fuel this year and have been happy with it and its consistency
SHARE  PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
09-22-2009 01:50 AM  11 years ago
majestic12

rrApprentice

Avon, CO

MyPosts All Forum Topic
Thanks for the reply Curtis. Yeah, it's just what I've been taught that too hot is no good. Thanks for setting that straight. What would be awesome is if engine and/or fuel manufactures could publish some recommended MAXIUM operating temps.
TREX 700N Flybarless
HF:STMPNGRND
SHARE  PM  EMAIL  HOMEPAGE  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
09-22-2009 02:18 AM  11 years ago
airdodger

rrElite Veteran

Johnston USA

MyPosts All Forum Topic
If engine manufactures could do that I am sure they would. Power comes from heat these are heat engines the hotter they run, the more power they make. The temperature you can't exceed is when the oil no longer lubricates properly. As the engine gets hotter the oil becomes thinner and loses lubrication properties, also as the temperatures elevate, the oil comes closer to the flash point and can start to burn. The variables are extensive, weight of heli, blades, drag in drive train, fuel, weather, altitude, muffler, plug, fan design, load imposed, and how you beat on the heli are just a few.Chris
SHARE  PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
09-22-2009 02:24 AM  11 years ago
bmapope

rrVeteran

TN

MyPosts All Forum Topic
our group of guys have already been through over 60 cases this year (soon to order more) with no reported problems and very good performance.
SHARE  PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
09-22-2009 04:04 AM  11 years ago
CoronaL

rrKey Veteran

Winnebago IL

MyPosts All Forum Topic
well there is a certain point, at least in some motors where too hot is too hot, despite NOT being lean and/or the oil package NOT breaking down.

I was running straight 30% CY this summer in the hot/humid temps and I over heated the motor banging on the sticks too hard with sustained tic tocs, having tuned for power, it would over heat the motor, and after it over heated, the ring lost it's spring and the motor lost compression. when the motor cooled, the compression came back, at least mostly, but it never was the same so I put a new ring in it. when it's that hot out now, I would back off a click or two from max power just to keep enough fuel/oil in it so after loading and heating the motor up it could sustain those tic tocs or long climbouts etc... Anyway, motor tear down showed NO internal damage as liner, piston etc... looked like new. Maybe that's what I should have been doing anyway, but with 50's it's easy to try to get greedy with the needles b/c you can use all the power you can get .

when running the magnum DS I didn't have the same overheating issues, as that fuel ran much cooler and made great power, but it was a nightmare to tune for me . I could get it close or spot on on the high end and the middle would suffer, track down the middle then the idle would go etc... Constantly chasing needles, but once it was tuned it was awesome, just very frustrating to tune it.
Randy!!! I am the liquor
SHARE  PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
09-22-2009 04:48 AM  11 years ago
ErichF (RIP)

rrElite Veteran

Sutton, NH

MyPosts All Forum Topic
All I know is this...

Since switching to Wildcat fuel (Heli-Mix 30%) for this past contest season...I have not had to change any engine bearings. On CP20 or 30%, I was changing rear bearings on my YS91STs every five or six cases. I'm easily at 10 cases now with my current set of bearings.

I prefer the lower smoking Heli-Mix with HV oil. That Klotz oil is great stuff. Lower volume of oil means more room per volume for stuff that goes bang = more power.

Erich
SHARE  PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
09-22-2009 05:01 AM  11 years ago
CoronaL

rrKey Veteran

Winnebago IL

MyPosts All Forum Topic
I agree, my bearings are really a NON issue, and I like that the wildcat blends I run don't leave deposits like CP does. I really don't like the idea of a fuel leaving deposits in my motor. I can't imagine it's good for the motor.Randy!!! I am the liquor
SHARE  PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
09-22-2009 05:29 AM  11 years ago
James Kovach

rrKey Veteran

canton, oh - US

MyPosts All Forum Topic
I was running straight 30% CY this summer in the hot/humid temps and I over heated the motor banging on the sticks too hard with sustained tic tocs, having tuned for power,
By this statement, IMHO, you did not "tune for power". When you tuned your engine, you should have been tuning it while doing those sustained tick tocs as those are some of the most demanding things on your engine.

IMHO, I think this is why most people end up with over-heated engines. When they are initially tuning their engine for power, you need to do stress the engine as much as you can. Well, your abilities at that time vs your abilities 2/3 months later will have an effect on this tuning. As your skill level progresses so does the demands you put on your engine. If you are not tuned for these new demands, it can damage your heli. This is an extreme example, but it will make my points. A guy tunes his engine today and the most demanding thing he can do with his heli is some flips and rolls. So when he is tuning the top end, he is really not putting much of a load on his engine to really get the top end set right. Two months later, this guy can now do sustained tic tocs. If he is still tuned for "max power" doing flips and rolls, you can bet he will over-heat when he starts doing those tic tocs. My point is, as your skill level progresses, you should keep an eye on your engine tuning.
SHARE  PM  EMAIL  HOMEPAGE  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
09-22-2009 07:04 PM  11 years ago
rexaholic

rrNovice

United States

MyPosts All Forum Topic
I agree completely. If you "tune for power" while hovering or doing circuits, of course it's going to overheat in more power demanding maneuvers.

Stress/load the motor up, aileron tic-tocs are great for this, land quickly and then check the temp. Now you are "tuning for power."
SHARE  PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
09-22-2009 08:18 PM  11 years ago
DS 8717

rrProfessor

Here wishing i was somewhere else

MyPosts All Forum Topic
Especially if your using a tuned muffler or pipe.YOU ONLY LIVE ONCE..IF YOU LIVE IT RIGHT THATS ALL YOU NEED
SHARE  PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
09-23-2009 02:28 AM  11 years ago
airdodger

rrElite Veteran

Johnston USA

MyPosts All Forum Topic
CoronaL What do you think happened? The ring was not able to pass the heat off to the liner and the ring lost it's temper. After the ring loses the seal, the combustion temperatures come down because you are not compressing it as much. The lower the viscosity of the oil, the less heat it can pass to the liner wall. You were lean for sure. I have been saying on here for years that a slightly rich mixture will make more power, a lean mixture will only make more power for a few seconds until you damage the engine. If you need that on the last lap of a race go for it but flying helis it's just a waste. I have had two stroke engines with concave pistons because I ran them so hot 475 degrees with no other damage besides the ring and piston.Chris
SHARE  PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
09-23-2009 03:19 AM  11 years ago
CoronaL

rrKey Veteran

Winnebago IL

MyPosts All Forum Topic
alright
call off the witch hunt. I was just relaying my experience.

FWIW, a click or two richer made a NOTICABLE difference in power, meaning alot less. This was on a YS50ST. So lesson learned that I couldn't tune that way and have modified my practices. My point in bringing this up, was that heat can effect a motor. IMO the motor wasn't lean, as in air/fuel ratio, but it did overheat. Lean meaning there is NO detonation, piston damage, liner damage etc.. The ring losing it's temper is a result of heat, NOT lean IMO. You guys call it what you want. Especially since when heating a motor that much will lead to increased chance of detonation/pre-ignition etc... and should have shown damage if the motor was indeed lean. The internals looked like new when pulled, but the motor couldn't dissapate the heat. Sure running the mixture richer would have cooled it by function of giving more oil, but there is alot of confusion at least from my part then, and MANY others that are instructed NOT to tune by temps, but for power. If you get the motor clean(ie not rich) and it's up on the pipe running fine making good power, through FF etc... But can't maintain power through sustained tic tocs, then is it lean??? I would say no; it can't shed the heat. BUT yes extra fuel would cool the motor, so YES you would need to compensate by going probably 2 clicks richer on that motor and suffer a further power loss, especially pronounced on a hot, muggy, humid day. Also, part of the problem was my hammering on the motor so much trying to get the sustained power in tic tocs ie 10 plus. You just can't really expect a motor to shed that heat in the high ambient and humid conditions, so FWIW I and whomever doesn't know better, needs to consider their flying style during that kind of weather, and backoff a bit on how much you hammer on it.

I'm not bagging on CY30 if you look at my posts it's what I run, but I do mix it down to a lower nitro content and somewhat different oil mix and IMO it works better that way.

Also, I'm not on some agenda to prove I'm right, as I'm willing to admit I'm wrong at times. I just want to be specific about what we are calling rich/lean, and what I "think" happened in my case.

Lean can over-heat a motor, by oil breakdown, pre-ignition, increased friction etc... I've done it by accident and taco'd motors.

This was IMO something different.

Also, FWIW I think it's probably good practice during these "dog days" to back off on the pitch too. Didn't help this was my Vibe50 which was a bit "porky", and several things added up that in hindsight I should have adjusted, to help decrease the load on the motor/heli, but it's a learning curve you know! Again, it's not like CY30 overheated my motor, I did it. I just wanted to illustrate to some people that may read this thread that ok you can tune for power, but there is a line you need to say behind before you can cause problems. Hopefully they will read this and adjust some parameters of their setup so they don't experience similar issues.
Randy!!! I am the liquor
SHARE  PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
09-23-2009 05:22 AM  11 years ago
Santiago P

rrProfessor

Dayton

MyPosts All Forum Topic
Back when I used to run CY 30% I had to add anywhere from .004 to .006 head shim to my OS91 to keep them from crackling or running rough. I used Enya 3 plugs.

Different approach: I meet a fellow from Indiana at the Jamboree who was running a YS91SR on 30%, almost sure it was WC CY.
The engine was running pretty rough with an OS 8 or Enya 3 regardless of the needle setting. Somewhat going to what Corona described, from too rich rough to crackling lean (pre-igniting). He tried a colder Enya 4 plug and it ran beautifully smooth with just the plug change. Huge difference.

Santiago
Representing Magnum Fuels
SHARE  PM  EMAIL  HOMEPAGE  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
09-23-2009 02:29 PM  11 years ago
Wildcat Fuels

rrApprentice

Lexington, Ky

MyPosts All Forum Topic
A little note on two sroke motors:

In a two stroke engine the glow plug is analagous to setting the timing in a classic car. You do this by turning the distributor and setting the timing with a timing light. If the timing is not correct the engine will overheat and knock. A glow plug is a mechanical means of setting the timing in a two stroke motor. The heat, size of wire, thickness of coil, amount of platinum on the wire, design of the fire base, internal coil well, all set the reaction rate of initiation of the plug. By going to a colder plug you are in effect retarding the timing cycle of the engine....going hotter advances the timing. Also, a colder plug often has a larger wire element which has a great surface area and therefore more platinum exposed to the fuel, this in turn gives you a greater catylitic action. Without this catylitic reation the fuel will not fire. When you add a head shim, once again, you are in effect retarding the timing by reducing the amount of "squish" in the engine.
Picture the piston traveling up the cylinder...as the piston approaches the top the compression of the gasses raises the Z factor and the causes the wire to glow brighter and brighter "due to the compression of the gasses and the molecules bumping into each other and the friction of theses molecules imparting energy to the coils" until the fuel reaches the ititiation point when it lights off. Now, if this happens to early "due to too high a compression or too hot a plug" you get pre-detonation which produces excess heat and vibration. To late, due to a too cold plug and you get a retarded firing cycle which results in flame outs and low idle instability.

All of these effects can change from day to day because of environmental effects such as humidity, pressure, and temperature....ie there is no perfect glow plug that is right all of the time. For the most part, most of the environmental factors can be tuned out with the needle settings, however, with the complex nature of R/C helicopters operating at a variety of loading situations this not always the case. In these situations a glow plug change, in either direction, may be necessary for "ultimate" performance. In the higher compression engines a head shim may also help. This is true for any fuel, in any R/C engine, in any R/C application.
SHARE  PM  EMAIL  Attn:RR  Quote
09-23-2009 03:57 PM  11 years ago
CoronaL

rrKey Veteran

Winnebago IL

MyPosts All Forum Topic
thx for the reply
Something I try to take into account now as I ruin more motors from lack of knowledge . I've learned this the hard way, but many can benefit from reading this.

Further, I wanted to add, and to explain a bit of why I'm taking exception to the scenario I described, saying it was lean.

I'm a car/hot rod guy too. Now 2 strokes, are different for sure, but there are different elements to the combustion, as Wildcat have pointed out in timing for one.

The thing I wanted to differentiate, if we can is rich vs lean, from cooling.

Now richer will run cooler to a point
Leaner will run hotter to a point(usually lockup)

At a certain point you enter what we used to call stoichiometric or the perfect air fuel ratio for a certain motor. Now normally aspirated motors preferred a slightly leaner AF ratio, where as supercharged motors we needed to richen motors up to "cool" them a bit with fuel to prevent detonation and piston damage, or catastrophic failure if unchecked.

So this is where I'm coming from saying that YS50ST I was describing was NOT lean and actually probably a bit rich AF ratio, even during the sustained maneuvers when it got too hot. The posters saying that I was lean, I believe were wrong in their terminology, but CORRECT in their assessment that making the mixture richer would have solved the issue. BUT it wasn't the A/F ratio IMO that we were targeting in this equation as being wrong, but the oil package and presenation to the combustion process that could have cooled the motor. Plus less power lol. Semantics I guess. BUT IMO tuning for power = getting a good AF ratio.

In any event My main fault I believe wasn't tuning, but continuing to hammer the motor during this hot/muggy weather and wanting to tune for POWER. You can have one or the other in weather like that(at least with the setup I had), hammer on it(gotta run it richer for more cooling from the oil), or tune for power, but allow the motor to cool by not going WOT for long. I was so focused on tuning and getting fair power, that I ignored a simple truth that hot weather, won't allow the motor to shed heat(DUHH), and like a car(real auto) in the same weather, if you hammer on that it could overheat too, despite proper tuning. I had never experienced an "overheat" before, and was told that I should tune for power and not worry about temps. I listed to that, and didn't know that I would get to that point, even with sustained tic tocs. Again, lesson learned.

There really are so many variables even with our simple little 2 stroke heli motors, that nailing down what to change, when, etc... it becomes very much an art to tuning motors, and I believe scares alot of people away, OR they have the potential to ruin motors or at least damage them.

It would be nice if we could give out flashcards to people to say, when the weather is at a certain temp/humidity and you're running X brand fuel, then you need to adjust with these needle settings, and/or run a cooler plug etc... However reaching a consensus on what to do, and when to do it might prove difficult to say the least. Plus variability in motors and pipe combos presents other challenges.
Randy!!! I am the liquor
SHARE  PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
09-23-2009 11:55 PM  11 years ago
airdodger

rrElite Veteran

Johnston USA

MyPosts All Forum Topic
http://www.flyrc.com/articles/tune_your_engine_1.shtml If you read the article take note on the items listed in order of importance that change timing.Chris
SHARE  PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
WATCH
 3 pages [ <<    <     1     ( 2 )     3     NEXT    >> ] 2833 views Post Reply
HomeRC & Power✈️Aircraft🚁HelicopterEngines Plugs Mufflers Fuel › wildcat 30% CY blend
Print TOPIC

 10  Topic Subscribe

Wednesday, January 27 - 12:33 pm - Copyright © 2000-2021 RunRyder   EMAILEnable Cookies

Login Here
 New Subscriptions 
 Buddies Online