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Home✈️Aircraft🚁Helicoptere-MikadoOther › First Thermal Shut Down
06-20-2009 12:57 AM  11 years ago
NTM

rrVeteran

Lloydminster, Alberta, Canada

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My Jazz 55 has given me the flattest headspeed lines, but I don't see any real difference in the quality of the Kontronik governors.
I'm not sure what type of flying a person could do where the differences between the jive's governor and the jazz's weren't readily apparent.
You're running your jive and jazz's on three different sized machines with three different cell counts, aren't you ?
If you did a direct swap in one machine you might notice, maybe...
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06-20-2009 03:25 AM  11 years ago
LJS

rrKey Veteran

Minnesota, USA

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Hi NTM,
I'm not sure what type of flying a person could do where the differences between the jive's governor and the jazz's weren't readily apparent.
Here are graphs of three different Kontronik ESCs.

Jazz 80-6-18

Jazz 55-10-32

Jive 80 HV

Can you take a moment and explain to me how the benefits of the Jive should be obvious to me?

Aren't you the same guy who was telling me that there is a 20% increase in efficiency going from flybar to flybarless? I've got some more graphs for you if you'd like to see them.

Are you a native Canadian?

Keep 'em flying.
LJS
Logo 600 VBar, 10S
TRex 600E VBar, 8S
Logo 500 VBar, 6S
TRex 600ESP, 6S
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06-20-2009 05:53 AM  11 years ago
NTM

rrVeteran

Lloydminster, Alberta, Canada

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Can you take a moment and explain to me how the benefits of the Jive should be obvious to me?
Re-read my post and take note of the reference to the three different setups that are in no way comparable. Of course the difference isn't obvious to you, they're three different machines, with three very different power setups.
Therefore it's kind of misleading to say things like:
I don't see any real difference in the quality of the Kontronik governors
Another slightly misleading statement:
I don't see how you can fly the Logo 500 on a 15 tooth. I maxed out my throttle curve trying to get 2300 rpm. Performance was anemic.
I don't get it, you're flying softly but need huge power ?
You're not even using what's there, a 15 tooth easily delivers fdr's that look exactly like yours. Without even breaking a sweat.
I'm fine with you flying whatever the heck you want to fly, but when you say stuff like that, you're misinforming others reading these threads.
99% of people that run the 4025 on a 15 tooth say it's very solid power, and their fdr's confirm that, showing quite a few more watts than yours, with more mechanical advantage afforded by the lower gearing as well.
Aren't you the same guy who was telling me that there is a 20% increase in efficiency going from flybar to flybarless?
I'll stand by that 100%.
When you v-bar there's the initial effeciency gain from losing drag, roughly 10%, and also the effeciency gained from allowing a lower headspeed to be used to get the same performance the heli had when flybarred.
It all depends how you want to distribute that effeciency gain, power or runtime. Or a little of both.
Are you a native Canadian?
Pardon me ?
By native, if you mean "was I born here?", then yes.
I am of german descent though.

Regards,
Nathan
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06-20-2009 02:09 PM  11 years ago
LJS

rrKey Veteran

Minnesota, USA

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Hi NTM,

You didn't explain how the Jive governor is better than the Jazz governor. You merely continued to criticize and insult me -- something you've been doing since you have been posting in my threads.

You say that I can't compare the governors despite the fact that I have collected hard data from them and that I fly these helis every other flight nearly every day in the summer. Yet you can make a statement saying that the Jive governor is better than the Jazz. Who's misleading who? Do you make this stuff up as you go?

The reason I asked if you're a native Canadian is that my business travels have taken me from Vancouver to Calgary and Edmonton, and from Toronto to Ottawa and St. John, and up until now, I haven't met a Canadian that I didn't like.

Keep 'em flying.
LJS
Logo 600 VBar, 10S
TRex 600E VBar, 8S
Logo 500 VBar, 6S
TRex 600ESP, 6S
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06-21-2009 02:30 AM  11 years ago
NTM

rrVeteran

Lloydminster, Alberta, Canada

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You say that I can't compare the governors despite the fact that I have collected hard data from them and that I fly these three very differently powered and sized helis every other flight nearly every day in the summer. Yet you can make a statement saying that the Jive governor is better than the Jazz. Who's misleading who? Do you make this stuff up as you go?
I bow to your superior logic and reasoning.

Yes I do make this stuff up as I go.

As you unfortunately feel the need to make this personal, I'll drop it now.

Regards,
Nathan
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06-21-2009 09:19 AM  11 years ago
helicraze

rrElite Veteran

Victoria - Australia

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If my memory is correct i think i had over 2300RPM with 15T and 4020 1100KV motor.

I think 2350 or so is pretty good RPM for logo 500.
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06-21-2009 09:20 PM  11 years ago
LJS

rrKey Veteran

Minnesota, USA

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Hi HC,

Yeah, I could get the 4025 up to 2300 rpm with the 15 tooth, but I was at 100% with the governor. That left the governor no headroom. That's why performance was poor. It wouldn't do climbing tic tocs and I couldn't hold altitude in my rolling circle.

The 16 tooth is great and puts the Logo 500 on a par with my TRex 600 powerwise and makes it almost as good as the Logo 600. But unfortunately I tried the 30C TP battery again last night and she thermalled again in my rolling circle even with the lower headspeed.

I'm going to give up on the Jazz 80 and pick up a better ESC. That Logo 500 with 16 tooth and 30C battery is too much fun to not have a good ESC.

Keep 'em flying.
LJS
Logo 600 VBar, 10S
TRex 600E VBar, 8S
Logo 500 VBar, 6S
TRex 600ESP, 6S
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06-22-2009 02:16 AM  11 years ago
Terrabit

rrElite Veteran

Seattle, WA - USA

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LJS,

Come on man! Nathan is right. If you want a reliable, objective comparison, do a direct swap - same everything but the ESC. I don't understand why you are having so much resistance to this argument. You did the same thing with your motor comparisons. The physics are undeniably different. This is not a personal attack. It's fact. This is a sincere attempt to help you see the flaw in your logic.

Anyway, it's not that big of a deal. Whatever, it's all good.
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06-22-2009 03:18 AM  11 years ago
LJS

rrKey Veteran

Minnesota, USA

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Hi TB,

You guys both must have time on your hands. For me, this hobby is not about testing. It's about flying and getting better. I have a short season to get in as much PRACTICE as I can. I measure to help make better decisions about the products that I purchase so that I can fly the best possible helis.

I don't have the least bit of interest in swapping out ESCs. If you're interested, why don't you do it? I'll read your post and thank you for the information (as opposed to criticizing someone for posting it).

Keep 'em flying,
LJS
Logo 600 VBar, 10S
TRex 600E VBar, 8S
Logo 500 VBar, 6S
TRex 600ESP, 6S
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06-22-2009 03:32 AM  11 years ago
Terrabit

rrElite Veteran

Seattle, WA - USA

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I am not criticizing you LJS. You're a great guy. You help a lot of people. But when you post a product evaluation that does not pass as as objective and unbiased - all else being equal, it makes a certain type of person a little crazy. It's like using two completely different scale rulers. It simply does not compute. It creates a dissonance or incongruity, like a splinter in my mind. It is unjust!

I hope this makes sense.
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06-22-2009 10:31 AM  11 years ago
LJS

rrKey Veteran

Minnesota, USA

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Hi TB,

Let's go over the Jazz vs Jive governor question again. Here are the graphs:

Jazz 80-6-18

Jazz 55-10-32

Jive 80HV

Each of the headspeed lines is roughly as flat as the others. Where's the difference? How can you say that the Jive governor is better than the Jazz?

Different helis? Yes. But how different are they? Each of those ESCs is using a flat 75% throttle curve. Each of the disc loadings on those helis is within 3% of the others. The Jazz 55 and Jive 80 HV both use X-Era motors.

TB, what's unjust about making a comparison and concluding that the governors function roughly the same? Keep in mind that we're looking at data that is taken at 10 frames per second. But the truth is that I could have told you by the feel of the helis that there is no difference in the quality of those governors, because each of those helis flies roughly the same with the setups that I'm now flying. I have worked hard to get them to fly the same because I fly them every other flight.

To disregard data because it is not a direct comparison makes less sense than making use of what you have.

Keep 'em flying.
LJS
Logo 600 VBar, 10S
TRex 600E VBar, 8S
Logo 500 VBar, 6S
TRex 600ESP, 6S
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06-22-2009 06:03 PM  11 years ago
Terrabit

rrElite Veteran

Seattle, WA - USA

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Words like "roughly" and "feel" are appropriate in this sort of comparison. I can say that I did do a direct swap from a Jazz 55-10-32 to a Jive 80hv and it did "feel" different to me. (no data logger) But if you want your exact measurements to pass muster in a critical analysis, then all other factors must be exactly the same - or as close as possible noting margin of error. These are fundamental principles of scientific method.

Lipos, motors, rotors, weight, mechanical advantage, etc. - there is too much inconsistency to state definitively one way or the other. It is fair to say that they are close. But that is about the extent to which your data are useful.
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06-22-2009 06:14 PM  11 years ago
MrMel

rrProfessor

Gotland

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Jive Governor IS better, However, that said, DEFAULT setting are the same as Jazz now (not before), (spoke to Kontronik about it after we researched some tail-kick-issues)

But, with Jive you have the possibility to set the Governor even more agressive with ProgCard II (or softer for that matter)

as for VBar, more power, yep, you get more power, i.e. LESS currentdraw for same manouver in your graph, most comes out of using the Cyclic, simple physics, a paddle-heli tries to stabilize itself, Vbar heli turns much much easier.
Running a Vbar on a nitro is the easiest way to see how much it really matters since they bog "normally" very easy.
Gone fishing..or hunting..or something
My site: http://heli.dacsa.net - VBar videos and more
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06-22-2009 07:03 PM  11 years ago
LJS

rrKey Veteran

Minnesota, USA

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Hi MrMel,

On the Jazz/Jive issue, we were talking about performance, not about optional adjustments.

On the increase in efficiency issue, the disagreement was in how much of an efficiency gain there was. My friend NTM claimed at least 20%. I had said it was closer to 5%.

My data showed an average 7% increase in efficiency on my Logo 500 and an average 10% increase in efficiency on my TRex 600E before vs after VBar. This was based on cumulative mah put back in after a standard flight. Normally you wouldn't be able to compare flights, but I fly FAI pattern, so my flight patterns are identical.

The before vs after VBar test was a direct comparison.

Keep 'em flying.
LJS
Logo 600 VBar, 10S
TRex 600E VBar, 8S
Logo 500 VBar, 6S
TRex 600ESP, 6S
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06-22-2009 07:12 PM  11 years ago
MrMel

rrProfessor

Gotland

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Kontronik _CHANGED_ Jazz/Jive programming to match the Jive, so take a old Jazz and there was tons of difference.

With FAI flying I take it you dont throw around the cyclic much.
You either get more power (less bogging) AND/OR flighttime.

You don't get 20% of both.

With Vbar you have the option to run lower RPM with maintained cyclic response, that can give even more flight-time in return.
So Mah used is only one leg, you need to compare RPM drop before and after with exact same voltage under load (same temp etc)

I gained roughly 25% flighttime on my Electric Aurora, by lowering HS 100RPM + going Vbar, same setup otherwise, of course it gets less "poppy", but still less boggy during hard cyclic moves.

So if you are only hovering around or flying patterns, it aint gonna be 20% for sure, since spinning the blades is not much more different with or without paddles.
Gone fishing..or hunting..or something
My site: http://heli.dacsa.net - VBar videos and more
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06-22-2009 07:16 PM  11 years ago
Terrabit

rrElite Veteran

Seattle, WA - USA

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It occurs to me that the difference in amp rating could play some part in overall effectiveness of the governor as well, especially in a comparison between the Jazz 55-10-32 and the Jive 80hv. Similarly, the difference in voltage would also have to be a consideration. Even if performance is identicle well within tollerances, it would have to vary at the margins. The Jive would have a distict advantage in dynamic headroom.
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06-22-2009 07:18 PM  11 years ago
MrMel

rrProfessor

Gotland

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Everything affects, I have probably 300 datalogs total from all my ships, it takes just a few degrees difference in ambient temp and you get totally different results.
E-Meter which I use now has built in ambient sensor, that way I can at least check for two similar days
Gone fishing..or hunting..or something
My site: http://heli.dacsa.net - VBar videos and more
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06-23-2009 02:09 AM  11 years ago
Big Fil

rrKey Veteran

Santa Rosa, CA

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Looking purely at the graphs LJS it does appear that the Jive is holding better than the Jazz. Notice you are getting about 50-60rpm dips on the Jive under the highest loads where your getting 200rpm differences on the hardest loads with the Jazz. Of course as others have mentioned there are sooo many variables going on that it's not an apples to apples comparison.

I've seen similar gov differences when I look at my Jazz80 graphs on my Logo500 and the Jive ones on my 600. They both fly good is all that matters.

BTW, I had lots of thermal shutdowns on my Jazz in 80+ weather. Dropping down a pinion kept me and readjusting my curves still gets me 2300rpm but I can fly in 100 degree weather and have not had a shutdown since switching to it 6 mos ago. It still has plenty of power.
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06-23-2009 04:18 AM  11 years ago
LJS

rrKey Veteran

Minnesota, USA

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Hi Fil,

All I can say is, "Tough crowd, tough crowd." I feel like Rodney Dangerfield at a roast. Everybody's a critic. But I'm not planning on stopping sharing information. The data speaks for itself and is helpful for people in making decisions. There are a lot of people viewing these posts -- although I don't know if it's for the data or the entertainment...

I'm flying a 4025 and it is not a performer on the 15 tooth. I was at 100% on the throttle curve to get 2300 rpm out of her. She was terrible in tictocs and rolling circles. But flying the 4025 on the 16 tooth (especially with the 30C ProPower battery) was way too much fun. What a little powerhouse.

So I took NTM's advice and went with the Jive 100LV. What convinced me to do that was how quickly the Jazz 80 popped in 83 F weather during my rolling circle. As soon as I started pitch pumping it thermalled. Unfortunately I forgot to plug in the EagleTree on that flight, but I have to think I need as high an amp ESC as I can get.

It will be here soon. I'll post the EagleTree data when I get it so everyone can raise holy hell.

BTW Fil, I flew the Logo 600 tonight in 93 F weather and saw X-Era temps at 137 F and Jive 80 HV temps at 128 F. That was by far as hot as it's ever been. I might have to buckle and heatsink the Jive. Temps are normally in the 110 F range during 75 F weather.

Keep 'em flying.
LJS
Logo 600 VBar, 10S
TRex 600E VBar, 8S
Logo 500 VBar, 6S
TRex 600ESP, 6S
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