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Home✈️Aircraft🚁HelicopterHIROBOOther › So what do all those holes on my FZ-5, SZ-5, or SSZ-IV/V's mixers adjust????
06-21-2009 03:20 AM  11 years ago
Dr.Ben

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Richmond, VA, USA

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Every manipulation of the ball(s) in the holes on the bell mixers themselves which increases collective and cyclic range will reduce the flybar authority and vice versa. There is no way around with this fact with mixers mounted on the pitch arms. The further you go out on the mixer side which goes down to the swash, the higher the flybar ratio and the less collective range. The same applies for the other side of the mixer when you move the ball closer into the mixer's pivot. From a pure design point of view, the only easy way to keep significant changes in bell hiller ratio from affecting collective range on a conventional head design is to have the bell mixers pivoting on the flybar. Y'all will have to stay tuned for how I'll implement this design concept using stock Hirobo parts on my SSZ-IV to buy myself back some needed collective range on my VPUS Eagle while keeping the flybar authority where I need it to be. Anyway, the main ways to preserve or increase flybar authority while at the same time increasing or preserving collective and cyclic range on the IV/V head designs are to move the balls closer to the centerline of the head (meaing use longer ones on the inside face of the mixers), move the whole bell mixer closer to the centerline of the head, or move the ball on the flybar carrier further out. The pitch arm is what it is, so you're not going to be moving the whole mixer closer into the head's centerline without custom parts. You can't move the ball out but so far on the carrier, even with custom parts (which I tried) without creating silly angles between that ball and its mate on the bell mixer. If you improve that angle by increasing the length of the ball on the mixer, then you just nullified any increase in flybar authority you created by moving out further on the carrier. In the setup I described which provides maximum stability, the ball I positioned on the inner face of the bell mixer on the swashplate rod's side is the longest one you can use without fouling in the hiller control arms at extremes of collective pitch plus some tilt in the flybar. This past winter I spent the better part of two solid weeks with what must have been hours each evening working through many ball positions to study how much collective and cyclic pitch was reduced with a given increase in flybar authority. The head set up that has its picture linked in the initial verbage yields a flybar ratio of right at 65%. I played around with some little handmade pieces to space out the balls on the flybar carrier even further to yield a ratio of close to 70%, but the model didn't really fly any better that way. The suggested setup for the SSZ-V FAI head is right at 65% as well. The unique thing about these Hirobo heads is that exhibit more stability in the wind at lower bell hiller ratios than other heads I have seen. In the wind and at 65% flybar authority, my model exhbits remarkably little trim shifting with change in model orientation to the wind. In addition, the dampening in the head is so stiff that even if the model really needed a good deal more flybar authority for maximum stability, it wouldn't tolerate it at anything below fairly high headspeeds or at the end of autos without mast bumping. Mine tries to wiggle just a tiny bit if a really drag in a slow auto. I can tell you for a fact that if I had plugged that 65% ratio into a Tempest FAI head years ago, the model wouldn't have stood a prayer of sitting well in the wind. Thus we can expect that the IV/V heads can be set up to provide good stability for whatever discipline the pilot chooses, yet there will still be sufficient control authority to do whatever the pilot needs the model to do, whether it be 3D, FAI or any combination thereof. In this regard especially, these heads are unique, very fine products indeed.

Ben Minor
Peak Aircraft/Team Minicopter Team Futaba Team Kontronik USA
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06-21-2009 03:33 AM  11 years ago
Dr.Ben

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Richmond, VA, USA

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Paul,

The way I think you need to look at the stability versus control balance is to first define what you need the model to do. If you're looking for a good deal of collective "pop" as is typical of today's 3D set ups, you're going to need somewhere around +/- 12-13D of collective pitch. So, first you'll need to play with the ball positions to get that range with a sensible amount of swash PIT AFR, perhaps 45-50%. Keeping the numbers in this range allows you to go up a bit without introducing unwanted interaction that can occur with even the best control systmes if you drive servo wheels way over to extremes. Luckily, the stock, suggested positions in the D3 and SDX kits yield "numbers" right in this range. With that kind of collective travel, cyclic authority will follow right along, so you'll dial that to taste with the way the model pitches and rolls. Now, here's the deal. Once you have those parameters in place, you need to look at how the model is tracking, sits still when needed (yes, sometimes even a 3D model needs to be calm if you're close to the ground doing this or that), and responds to wind. If you feel like you could use a little more stability in the wind, you can go out a little on the flybar carrier. Expect the model to slow in control response a little since you'll be overcoming more of the stabilizing influence of the flybar with a control input. If the model literaly feels like it has cyclic authority to burn, then you can also play around with a bit more flybar or paddle weight. If, when you get the center stability and straight line tracking of the model where it feels right, the cyclic response feels a little too slow, then just open up the AIL and ELE swash AFR a little bit. Flybar legnth is also there for you to play with, with a longer bar typically providing more steering authority. I realize that there are enough parameters here to give many guys a headache. I can tell you that if you tell me what the model is doing once you have a basic set up going AND what you need it to do, then I can suggest to you what variables to manipulate and in order to yield your desired result. Just ask; it's my pleasure.

Ben Minor
Peak Aircraft/Team Minicopter Team Futaba Team Kontronik USA
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06-21-2009 04:11 AM  11 years ago
Quickster

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Victoria, Australia

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Thanks Ben, I will have to do some more flight testing and fiddle around to see what i like best!
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06-21-2009 04:58 AM  11 years ago
KopterKat

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New Jersey

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Dr. Ben,
Thanks for the clear and to the point explanation. This is information well worth saving.

To All: A few weeks ago I had the pleasure of meeting Dr. Ben although I didn't know it. He gave his time and knowledge freely and was very patient. I'd like a take this opportunity to publicly thank him for his time and for sharing his knowledge with me.

Keep up the great work.
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06-21-2009 04:23 PM  11 years ago
Dr.Ben

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Richmond, VA, USA

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It was a pleasure to work with you and your Turbulence, Tom. I'll look forward to seeing you again soon.

Ben
Peak Aircraft/Team Minicopter Team Futaba Team Kontronik USA
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08-04-2009 12:30 AM  11 years ago
MR SLOWFLOW

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N.J/N.Y

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Revisitingaka MR AIRBRUSH
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08-07-2009 01:19 AM  11 years ago
Brendan78

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NSW Australia

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Hi Koptercat,

What settings on the head did you end up with on your Turbulence??? would have been awesome meeting Ben! your an absolute asset to Hirobo Ben.
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06-06-2011 11:45 PM  9 years ago
Bouchah

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Willow Spring, N. Carolina USA

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I currently am repairing my SDX from a mishap, so it will be a few days before I can try anything new.
I am not an extreme 3D pilot by any means, more of a sport pilot dabbling in a few 3D manouvers. What I notice with my SDX is the cyclic roll rates seems very slow, aileron and elevator. Even for the basic moves that I try it seems to take forever to roll around. The setup is what the manual instructs for the head. I have 9252 servos for the swash, I was wondering if I need to upgrade the servos to something faster or will adjusting the head make enough difference, faster response, without spending $300-$500 on new servos.

Thanks
Blade 130x (5)
Trex 550 V2 (18)
Shuttle ZXX
Freya Xspec (20)
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06-07-2011 01:21 AM  9 years ago
doorman

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Sherwood, Arkansas

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💎Sustaining Member
Head Adjustments.....
Continue your search for Dr Ben's explaination of adjusting the head and you will be pleasantly surprised at how well the 9252 servos will work for you....if you were into throw the machine at the ground type 3D then you might need to upgrade, but not for some time from how you describe your flying.... adjust it and go out and have a LOT of fun with it.....

Stan
AMA 2918-Team Spin Blades,,Castle Creations, Unique Aircraft
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06-07-2011 02:09 AM  9 years ago
rudyy

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E. Amherst, NY

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You can use longer flybar, lighter paddles or lighter main blades. All of those will improve the roll rate.
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06-15-2011 09:41 PM  9 years ago
Heimypilot

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Hengelo Netherlands

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hello all,

I have 2 Freya's with SSZ-5 heads for FAI flying and set up the head by the book. I'm just going into fine tuning the head and gathered some info from germany and also got to see Hashimoto's hiller setup.

I flew the head for some month now (and I just entered FAI) And in heavy winds I think the flybar reacts a bit to much on the gusts. The heli shakes for a moment after a wind gust. So I have gotten some ideas on manipulating the bell hiller mix but I was just thinking of how would the 3 different hirobo paddle caps influence on this? I mounted the L20 caps as by the book but did anyone try the L14 or the L25 cap?

Steven
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06-16-2011 02:55 AM  9 years ago
Dr.Ben

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Richmond, VA, USA

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If the shake you describe is more like a wobble about the skids, that's not too much flyabr ratio; that's a mast bump. Play with your headspeed up or down a little to try to stay away from the rpm range that induces it. Also change out the head dampers to the ones from the SDX. Finally, for some weird reason, t/r gyro gain that's set on the threshold of wag can sometime induce the mast bumping. Paddle mass, more than paddles area has greater effect on how the model behaves in reaction to the wind. Paddle area has more effect on your steering authority.

Ben Minor
Peak Aircraft/Team Minicopter Team Futaba Team Kontronik USA
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06-19-2011 09:03 PM  9 years ago
Heimypilot

rrApprentice

Hengelo Netherlands

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Thanks Ben for answering,

It is not the thing you discribe, however I just took a look at some movies and found that same shake at Bernard Egger's heli , I guess it is a more or less common thing. Take a look at :

https://rc.runryder.com/rrTV-Photo/...DS2009-0909.wmv

at about 2:28 through 2:29 minutes it is very visable.

Keep in mind that it only occurs at these very hard winds.

Steven
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06-20-2011 01:26 AM  9 years ago
Dr.Ben

rrMaster

Richmond, VA, USA

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Yeah, we've all seen that at one time or another on one model or another.

With the dampening relatively limited in adjustability on the Hirobo axle heads, you need to play with the headspeed a little. I used to dislike the way my model flew @ anything above 1500 rpm, but I've developed quite a liking for 1550 rpm. Flyabr ratio does not play a big role to stopping the nod.

Ben Minor
Peak Aircraft/Team Minicopter Team Futaba Team Kontronik USA
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06-20-2011 01:40 AM  9 years ago
fung_jeff

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Vancouver, BC, Canada

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Dr. Ben

I think i've seen a visual version of this post by Freakyreef correct? Couldn't you ask him to borrow his picture and post it on this SUPER informative thread?
Jeffrey Fung...15 Years old - FLEET: Evo 50, Raptor 30, Trex 500, SDX's, X-Spec, Logo 10/400
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06-25-2011 01:10 AM  9 years ago
freakyreef

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Kansas\Colorado border

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He is more than welcome to use the picture. It is also in my gallery.

Walk on water long enough, eventually you will get your feet wet.
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Home✈️Aircraft🚁HelicopterHIROBOOther › So what do all those holes on my FZ-5, SZ-5, or SSZ-IV/V's mixers adjust????
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