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HomeOff Topics › Full Scale pilots, question about Air France 447....instrument rating...
06-08-2009 12:57 AM  9 years agoPost 1
jcrack_corn

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End of Time

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Those with instrument ratings, please share your thoughts on a situation where it is 11pmish, over the ocean, in a massive thunderstorm.

training says you can pull the shades over the windows, toss your brain out, and fly by the dials.....assuming there was possibly a high altitude stall, at what point (especially with 1000's of hours of stick time for the left chair on 447) do you say swrew the airspeed indicator, I KNOW i should be at 75% (or whatever) throttle at 35000 ft to maintain 500kts....???

what is the thought process for determining instrument failure in an instrument only flight situation

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do it inverted
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06-08-2009 01:54 AM  9 years agoPost 2
Helizrule

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Lake Ariel, PA

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It's an Airbus and you are at the mercy of the computers....Computers fail so do your flight controls and pressurization do I need to say more.

One mile of road will take you one mile. One mile of runway will take you anywhere in the world.

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06-08-2009 02:01 AM  9 years agoPost 3
Avropilot

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Murfreesboro, Tennessee

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what is the thought process for determining instrument failure in an instrument only flight situation
There's primary and secondary instruments for every failure.

However I believe they'll find the vertical fin fell off it in the heavy turbulence the storm was producing.

Remember the one that fell off not too long ago over long island? Lots of airbus crashes lately and should raise an eyebrow of the FAA here in the states.

Waiting for parts

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06-08-2009 02:27 AM  9 years agoPost 4
Helizrule

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Lake Ariel, PA

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Yes, I agree. Composite materials are used widely in the Airbus.

One mile of road will take you one mile. One mile of runway will take you anywhere in the world.

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06-08-2009 03:02 AM  9 years agoPost 5
FILE IFR

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Anytown, USA 01234

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There's primary and secondary instruments for every failure.
+1

The storm cell should have been avoided... plain and simple.

I can't comment on the POH of the AirBus as I'm not familiar with it.

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06-08-2009 08:35 PM  9 years agoPost 6
Leif

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USA

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This would appear to be the vertical stabilizer, although I suppose it also could be one of the horizontal stabilizers.

Leif

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06-08-2009 10:51 PM  9 years agoPost 7
philip 01

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ft worth

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based on their paint scheme that would be the verticle.

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06-09-2009 12:08 AM  9 years agoPost 8
ErichF

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Sutton, NH

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I can't speak for the Airbus, but in the OP situation in a light GA airplane:

If the airspeed needle was not "alive" anymore, I would revert to my VSI (vertical speed indicator), Altimeter, and engine tach for performance estimation of airspeed. If I suspected a total pitot/static failure or clog, I'd then try to break the glass on the VSI gauge so I could at least get some rough altitude performance information.

Airspeed indication failures usually work backwards from normal. If there's a clog in the airspeed pitot, the higher you climb looks like a speed increase, as the airspeed indicator behaves like the altimeter. The unprepared pilot will then pull the nose up to stop the airspeed increase, which is the exact opposite thing to do. This results in a stall and possibly spin. This actually happened to an airliner over Columbia, I think. The ground crew and air crew both missed masking tape over the pitot tubes after the aircraft was washed.

Erich

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06-09-2009 01:13 AM  9 years agoPost 9
SSN Pru

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Taxachusetts

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Leif

My money is on that floating piece of debris being the vertical stab. It appears, from a quick google search, that Air France doesn't paint their horizontal stabs.

Stupidity can be cured. Ignorance is for life!

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06-09-2009 06:01 AM  9 years agoPost 10
ScaleBrad

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Longwood, FL USA

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Avropilot-

I believe you are on to something. Finding the vertical stab I think is a key part of the wreckage.

Quoted from CNN:

"The Airbus A330-200 has a "rudder limiter" which constricts how much the rudder — which is attached to the vertical stabilizer — can move at high speeds. If it were to move too far while traveling fast, it could shear off and take the vertical stabilizer with it."

"If you had a wrong speed being fed to the computer by the Pitot tube, it might allow the rudder to over travel," Goelz said. "The limiter limits the travel of the rudder at high speeds and prevents it from being torn off."

Asked if the rudder or stabilizer being sheared off could have brought the jet down, Goelz said: "Absolutely. You need a rudder. And you need the (rudder) limiter on there to make sure the rudder doesn't get torn off or cause havoc with the plane's aerodynamics."

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06-09-2009 06:11 AM  9 years agoPost 11
AllThumbs

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New Zealand

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This is the size of the recovered part from another website...

One of the Auto messages sent out in the last few min of flight was a rudder travel limit warning?? Seen that on antoher site too. However the rudder is not complete (Like the AA crash).
From another site:
William Waldock, who teaches air crash investigation at Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University in Prescott, Arizona, and examined the photos and video of the stabilizer and rudder - said the damage he saw looks like a lateral fracture. “That would reinforce the idea that the plane broke up in flight,” he said. “If it hits intact, everything shatters in tiny pieces.”
All speculation of course.
RIP.

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06-09-2009 12:57 PM  9 years agoPost 12
SSN Pru

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Taxachusetts

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What doesn't look complete about that V stab? looks like they could put it right back onto a jet it's so complete...

I'm curious, Airbus's seem to be developing a reputation for having their V stabs be prone to coming off in flight under certain circumstances. Is there something in their design that is a weak point? Do Boeing aircraft suffer from this? I can't remember a V stab coming off in flight on a Boeing.

Stupidity can be cured. Ignorance is for life!

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06-09-2009 02:38 PM  9 years agoPost 13
Leif

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USA

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Is there something in their design that is a weak point? Do Boeing aircraft suffer from this? I can't remember a V stab coming off in flight on a Boeing.
I believe the Airbus stabilizer is a composite material, as compared to the traditional metal tails on most other commercial aircraft (including Boeing aircraft).

I'm not an industry expert by any means, but I am concerned by this apparent flaw in the Airbus design. Even just considering the one failure in New York that was blamed on excessive rudder usage, I feel that this possibility for structural failure on a critical piece of the airframe should not be acceptable.

As you pointed out, metal vertical stabilizers have been a reliable design on commercial jets for decades. Introducing a new material that is shown to fail under conditions that would be survivable with traditional materials should not be OK.

Leif

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06-09-2009 03:39 PM  9 years agoPost 14
ZZ3Astro

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Panama City, Fl

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That second photoshop overlay of the vertical stab was shown to be inaccurate. When you look at actual photos of the tail section, the graphics don't end that high above the tail cone. The vertical stab is more complete than the overlay shows. Some photos I've seen show what appears to be the center mounting lugs, possibly attached to some of the metal from the fuselage mount.

I really hope they recover the recorders from this flight.

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06-09-2009 05:06 PM  9 years agoPost 15
sincity

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Pasco, WA

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Hmmm...

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06-09-2009 09:43 PM  9 years agoPost 16
SSN Pru

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Taxachusetts

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Well, looks like RR has solved another problem. Time to recall the Navy and the NTSB.

Stupidity can be cured. Ignorance is for life!

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06-09-2009 09:53 PM  9 years agoPost 17
AllThumbs

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New Zealand

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Well, looks like RR has solved another problem
We are good like that..
However it does not take to much searching on the internet these days to find information. And just to prove the "Experts" quote in my last post was not quite right
If it hits intact, everything shatters in tiny pieces
He obviosly forgot about the Air New Zealand A320 that crashed off Perpignan. High speed impact into water that destroyed the entire plane.. except the Vertical Stab/Rudder, which was almost complete. The speculation will contine....

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