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HomeAircraftHelicopterRadio - Spektrum DSM › DX7 Gain
06-06-2009 08:36 PM  9 years agoPost 21
RCHSF

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NC

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Looking better all the time.

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06-07-2009 04:57 AM  9 years agoPost 22
dkshema

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Cedar Rapids, IA

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EDIT -- I removed this particular post, and added a corrected version later on in this thread.

My original post had some incorrect information in it with regard to the DX7 and gyro control. I got hold of a DX, ran some experiments, and updated (corrected) this post with my new post a few more replies down. I apologize for putting incorrect info here, earlier. Use my long reply below when figuring out what to do with your DX7 and gyro.

-----
Dave

* Making the World Better -- One Helicopter at a time! *

Team Heliproz

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06-07-2009 05:32 AM  9 years agoPost 23
RCHSF

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Sure thanks dkshema, I think I got it worked out today, I ended up with 65 gain, if I go to 70 it weature vanes, and if
I go down to say 50 the tail is real quick, and touchy, even with 25% expo, so 65% works good.

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06-07-2009 05:52 AM  9 years agoPost 24
dkshema

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Cedar Rapids, IA

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Changing your gain should have nothing to do with the tail weathervaning or becoming touchy with respect to the sticks.

Lower gains will cause the GYRO's response to an external upset -- not stick related -- to be slower than higher gains.

The STICK input/sensitivity is controlled by the RUDDER channel endpoint setting, and the amount (if any) of EXPO you have dialed in, and isn't really affected by the gain setting.

In general, gain setting is accomplished by increasing the gain until the tail of the heli begins to oscillate in fast forward flight. You then back off gain just a bit so that in FFF, the tail stops the oscillation. You adjust the gain for a maximum value that doesn't make the tail continually hunt for where it should be. With a high speed servo, too high a gain will shake the bejeebers out of your tail in FFF.

Higher gain settings, coupled with high speed servos, allow the gyro to make nearly instantaneous corrections to the tail, to keep it pointed where it should be. Lower gain settings cause the gyro to respond a bit more slowly, and the tail could begin to wander before the gyro grabs it, and puts it back where it should be.

-----

The rudder channel endpoint setting controls HOW FAST the gyro will let the tail YAW under RUDDER stick command. Smaller rudder endpoint numbers (generally less than 100%) equate to a heli that under full rudder command may spin at a rather lazy, lethargic rate. Larger endpoint numbers (generally greater than 100%) equate to a heli that can spin like the Tasmanian Devil with full rudder command.

EXPO, when added to the rudder, is designed to soften the rudder response around neutral. It doesn't affect rudder travel at full stick. It's there so that you can wander a bit left or right of neutral (whether by accident, or design) without the tail being touchy, or twitchy. A good amount of EXPO will allow you some latitude with your thumb before that crazy high speed piro rate kicks in. It makes you look good and smooth with your thumbs, instead of nervous.

-----
Dave

* Making the World Better -- One Helicopter at a time! *

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06-07-2009 01:00 PM  9 years agoPost 25
copperclad

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NY

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great info dkshema

thanks for posting this , it really helps , thanks again

one thing i notice with mine that seems to be different though , and this is probably due to the fact that i am using a AR6200 RX

i enable the gear switch in the input select menu

AUX2..............GEAR
INH...................GYRO

then if i go into the servo monitor screen i see that the gear switch no longer moves channel 5 , but the RUDDER D/R switch now controls channel 5

i can confirm this by plugging a servo into channel 5 and the RUDDER D/R switch does in fact move it , and the GEAR switch does not

i set the GYRO sense menue

RUDD D/R
RATE:
0: 75%
1: 15%

and the gyro will go from HH to RATE controlled by the RUDDER D/R switch , again the GEAR switch has no effect on channel 5

and i see that if i go into the servo monitor screen , that the numbers i set in the GYRO sense menu , do have an effect on the endpoints of channel 5

thanks again

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06-07-2009 07:50 PM  9 years agoPost 26
dkshema

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Cedar Rapids, IA

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No, it's not because you're using the AR6200. The receiver may be smart, but not THAT smart.

In the Gyro Sense menu, do you have AUTO or RUDD D/R selected? Otherwise, I see no way that the Rudder D/R switch would do anything.

I need a DX7 to figure this one out. I asked a friend a while back about selecting GEAR in the input select menu for the Gyro function, and what moved what when in that mode. Perhaps the info I was given was incorrect. I'll have to get my hands on a DX7 and experiment. It may be that when you select GEAR in the input select menu to be Gyro, the gyro sense stuff comes out on channel 5 instead of channel 7, and is controlled by the Flight mode or Rudd D/R switch, instead of the Gear switch.

I might have to fix my explanation.

EDIT EDIT -- I just re-read your message, and you DO have the Rudder D/R switch selected, instead of AUTO.

It would appear that when using the Gyro Sense menu, your only two choices are the Flight Mode Switch, or the Rudder D/R switch. And you can have the Gyro Sense function squirt out of the default Channel 7 port, or if you assign GEAR to GYRO, move the function over to the GEAR port, channel 5. And it would appear that the GEAR switch is the odd man out in that situation.

And that if you really wanted to use the Gear switch to control gain, your only choice is to have the gear switch run the gear channel.

It's making more sense to me, now. But I still would like to get hold of a DX7 to make sure.

-----
Dave

* Making the World Better -- One Helicopter at a time! *

Team Heliproz

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06-07-2009 08:40 PM  9 years agoPost 27
copperclad

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NY

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It would appear that when using the Gyro Sense menu, your only two choices are the Flight Mode Switch, or the Rudder D/R switch. And you can have the Gyro Sense function squirt out of the default Channel 7 port, or if you assign GEAR to GYRO, move the function over to the GEAR port, channel 5. And it would appear that the GEAR switch is the odd man out in that situation.
Hi dkshema

yes , this is how it seems to be working , once input select is set to GEAR/GYRO channel 5 is controlled by the RUDDER D/R switch , and the GEAR switch seems to be disabled

your post has more info on how this function works than the manual for the DX7 , and i have not found much other info on it here on RR

i used the gear switch a few years ago for the gyro , but after followning the Raptortechnique guide on setting up the 401 , i have switched over to using the RUDDER D/R switch , and have become used to it

so i am Happy with using the RUDDER D/R switch , and with the info you posted , and messing with the TX i am happy with my setup now

thanks again

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06-07-2009 11:45 PM  9 years agoPost 28
dkshema

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Cedar Rapids, IA

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When I get my hands on a real DX7, I'll check it out and edit my post to be 100% correct.

Meanwhile, you can lobby JR/Spektrum to have me be their manual writer.

-----
Dave

* Making the World Better -- One Helicopter at a time! *

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06-08-2009 01:30 AM  9 years agoPost 29
copperclad

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NY

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Meanwhile, you can lobby JR/Spektrum to have me be their manual writer
Hi dkshema

i'm not going to mess around , i printed your post out and stapled it into the back of my manual

.

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06-09-2009 04:15 PM  9 years agoPost 30
dkshema

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Cedar Rapids, IA

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EDIT -- I've added a few comments and some red text to indicate that this post can apply to the X9303/X9503 radio, as well. The X9303 and X9503 don't allow controlling the gyro using the GYRO SENSE menu and channel 5 of your RX. The DX 7, on the other hand, does.

I got my hands on a DX7, ran some experiments, and have corrected my earlier post. This post describes how the DX7 can bet set up to control your gyro. If you're using my previous post in this thread, you will encounter odd results. Use the information posted HERE:

The DX7 Gyro Sense menu is shown above. When using the Gyro Sense feature to control your gyro, you have two options to control the Gyro's gain:

1. If you select "AUTO" as shown in the picture, Gyro gain is controlled by the FLIGHT MODE SWITCH. The switch is on the top-left, front-corner of the transmitter in a heli version of the transmitter. It's a three-position switch. NORMAL mode -- the switch is positioned toward the rear of the transmitter. STNT1, the switch is centered, STNT2, the switch is toward the front of the transmitter.

STNT1 would be "Idle up 1", STNT2 would be "Idle up 2".

2. Instead of "AUTO", you can elect to use the RUDDER DUAL RATE (RUDD D/R) switch to control the gyro's gain. If you opt to use the RUDD D/R switch, JR/Spektrum refers to this as "MANUAL MODE". The RUDD D/R switch is located on the top-right, front-corner of the transmitter. (This switch normally functions as the Throttle Hold switch. If you choose to use this switch to control Gyro Gain, you'll have to reassign the Throttle hold stuff to a different switch).

-----
If you have an X9303/X9503, ignore the stuff in RED as you don't have the option to use the gyro sense menu with RX channel 5.

The Gyro Sense function can be user selected to use channel 7 (AUX 2 of the RX) to control the gyro's gain, or channel 5 (the GEAR channel of the RX) to control the gyro's gain. This is a cool feature if you have a six-channel receiver as it gives you more options to control your gyro instead of forcing you to use the GEAR switch and channel 5 for gain control. You can use the flexibility afforded by the Gyro Sense menu in a 6-channel RX.

-----

The INPUT SELECT menu is used to choose which channel -- channel 5 (GEAR), or channel 7 (AUX 2) -- will be used as the gyro gain control channel under the control of the Gyro Sense menu. The Input Select menu is shown here:

If you enter GYRO under the AUX 2 location, the Gyro Sense functions are slaved to channel 7 (AUX 2) and the gyro's gain lead MUST be plugged into channel 7 of your RX.

This next paragraph, in RED is applicable only to the DX7. If you have an X9303/X9503, skip it, you don't HAVE this option as you can't assign the Gyro Sense stuff to work out of channel 5 of the RX.

If you enter GYRO under the GEAR location, the Gyro Sense functions are slaved to channel 5 (GEAR) and the gyro's gain lead MUST be plugged into channel 5 of your RX.

In either case, the Flight Mode Switch (AUTO mode) or the RUDD D/R switch will control the gyro's gain, and the gains will be chosen based on the settings in the Gyro Sense menu.

-----

If you skip the Gyro Sense menu altogether, and simply plug the gain lead into channel 5 and use the GEAR switch, the Gear Switch controls gain, the Endpoints of the gear channel set the gain, and you get one gain for HH mode, and one gain for normal mode, as the switch only has two positions. The entry under the GEAR part of the Input Select menu MUST be set to GEAR in this case.

-----

Back to the Gyro Sense menu, and AUTO mode and the position of the FLIGHT mode switch.

The Flight mode switch has three positions...normal, Stunt 1, Stunt 2. On the right-hand side of the Gyro Sense Menu, you'll see

NORM:0
STNT:0

If you have THROTTLE HOLD enabled, you'll also see:

HOLD:0

on the right-hand side of the screen.

On the left-hand side, you see:

RATE:

0: 50%
1: 50%

The numbers in the RATE section select HH mode (numbers 50 to 100), and they select Normal mode (numbers 0 to 50).

If rate selections "0" and "1" are both less than 50, you can only get normal mode operation. If rate selections "0" and "1" are both greater than 50, you can only get HH mode operation.

If one of the numbers is greater than 50 and the other is less than 50, you can then set up your radio to select normal OR HH mode, depending upon the flight mode selection.

-----

Going back to the Right side of the screen, where you see:

NORM:0
STNT:0
HOLD:0

If you have:

RATE:

0: 75%
1: 25%

the "75%" setting will apply to the NORM, both STNT1, and STNT2 positions of the Flight Mode switch, and to throttle HOLD, when the switch is ON. That means all four flight modes would have HH mode selected.

If you have:

NORM:0
STNT:1
HOLD:0

and

RATE:

0:75%
1:25%

Then when the flight mode switch is in normal mode (towards the rear of the TX), it will select the "0:75%" setting, and HH mode.

The middle position of the switch (STNT1), and the forward STNT2 position (towards the front of the TX) will select Normal mode operation (the 1:25% setting).

HOLD, when active, will select the "0:75%" value, and HH mode.

-----

The "0" or "1" in the NORM/STNT/HOLD portion of the screen selects the gain value associated with the "0" and "1" values of the RATE portion of the screen.

-----

When using the Gyro Sense Menu, as noted above, numbers in the 50 to 100 range select HH mode, and numbers in the 0 to 50 range select normal mode operation.

If your gyro is the GY401, and you use the Gyro Sense menu, the following explains what gain is selected:

RATE 0:xx% or 1:xx% Values 50 to 100, 0 to 100% HH gain. 50% setting gives 0 gain, 75% setting gives 50% gain, 100% setting gives 100% gain.

Rate 0:xx% or 1:xx% Values 0 to 50, 100 to 0 normal mode gain. 0% setting gives 100% gain, 25% setting gives 50% gain, 50% setting gives 0% gain.

-----

If you elect to use RUDD D/R instead of AUTO, all of the above is still valid, except the position of the RUDD D/R switch determines the gain choice, not the Flight Mode Switch. The RATE and NORM/STNT/HOLD stuff works the same.

-----

If you simply decide to not use the gyro sense menu (INHibit it), use the GEAR switch and RX channel 5 for gain control, you have the following options:

GEAR channel endpoints (Travel Adjust menu) select gain.

The GEAR switch UP towards the top of the TX will select HH mode, DOWN towards the left stick will select NORMAL mode operation. (You can change that by reversing the GEAR channel in the reversing menu).

In the TRAVEL ADJ menu, under GEAR -- the first number (goes from +0 to +100) will select gain for HH mode. The second number under GEAR (goes from -0 to -100) selects gain in NORMAL mode.

For numbers 0 to 10 in either travel adjust window, the 401 will not like you. For numbers greater than 90 in either travel adjust window, the 401 will not like you. Calculating the gain:

End Points set to +/-100, anything greater than 100 is a waste of time.

+/-0 to +/-10 is no man's land. +/-91 to +/-100 is no man's land. The usable range is 10 to 90 (HH mode), and -10 to -90 (normal mode).

Based on that chart, you can set your gain as low as 11, or as high as 100%.

A setting of "10" yields gain = 11, a setting of "90" yields a gain = 100%, a setting of "45" yields a gain = 50.

In the example, the value of "72" sets the gain to 80.

You can figure out what gain the number will yield by solving the following equation:

(Desired Gain) x 0.9 = End Point Value

In the examples given in the manual:

(80) x 0.9 = 72 and (60) x 0.9 = 54

As you have found, positive numbers give you HH mode (and you need to apply power to the gyro with the switch in this position, for it to work correctly), and negative numbers give you Normal (rate) mode operation.

-----

Hope that helps you figure out what you really want to do with your gyro.

-----
Dave

* Making the World Better -- One Helicopter at a time! *

Team Heliproz

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06-10-2009 12:15 AM  9 years agoPost 31
copperclad

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NY

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Hi dkshema

good work , great post on the ins and outs of the gyro function on a DX-7 , this is much better than the info in the manual

i have been running GY-401s and a XP9303 for a few years now , and about two weeks ago , went to set one up on my new ( to me ) DX-7 , and i have to admit i was scratching my head trying to get it setup , i messed with it for easily an hour or more , and although i had it working , i was not to confident that i had it working correctly

this is what got me to pay attention to this thread , and after reading your first post and playing around a bit more , on a spare RX and gyro , i have it setup the way i am used to , and this time i am comfortable that it is correct , thanks again

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06-10-2009 01:42 AM  9 years agoPost 32
dkshema

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Cedar Rapids, IA

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The DX7 pretty much mirrors the X9303 in gyro setup, but has that one nice feature of being able to run all the good stuff from channel 5 OR channel 7. I don't know why they didn't carry that over to the X9303 and other radios.

-----
Dave

* Making the World Better -- One Helicopter at a time! *

Team Heliproz

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08-22-2009 02:54 AM  8 years agoPost 33
Flying Brian

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St. Clairsville, Ohio

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I continue to ask myself, "why the hell are you trying to set up gains for Idle 1,2,3,4" "Because I like to tinker, and it is cool", Then I ask, are you good enough to use or notice different gain settings for your gyro/rudder set up?, and the answer is NO, I am not!

Im still not convinced, am I wasting valuble radio cosmetics due to fling skills, or will more settings just make life more complicated?

I believe I like 2.4 tech very much, but I will stick with 1 gain on my GEAR channel, as this switch is good for not much else, and live with it....

I do understand how to set up the sense menu for my Gyro for future tinkerings if need be, so what Im getting at is, that was and is a reat write up, and I would have NEVER understood fully without it.

Thanks

"I just don't Listen" "

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03-20-2010 05:57 AM  8 years agoPost 34
AWittleWabbit

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O.C., CA

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late to the party
Just post to say thanks for the excellent write up. I used auto gyro sense in my 8103. I didn't realize it could be used with ch5 on the dx7. I just assumed and left it be. Kinda irks me I didn't read this sooner.

Heli-itis sufferer.

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