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HomeAircraftHelicopterAlignT-REX 700N › Mid and Hi Needle: What the heck do they do???
06-03-2009 11:56 PM  9 years agoPost 1
Rockohaulic

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Canyon Country, CA, USA, 3rd Rock from the Sun

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OK, I have determined that setting needles for a 90 size engine is a black art, and I'm just a stupid engineer, and not a magician. I've also determined that I am not the only one out there having problems with engine tuning.

So if you are one of the very few who understands this black, mysterious, highly secretive art of engine tuning, please post and enlighten the rest of us.

To start out with, which needle affects the following (some of these are more obvious than others, but I'm going to throw them all out there):

1. Hovering: mid or high?

2. Full throttle climbout: mid or high?

3. 3/4 throttle climbout: mid or high?

4. Multiple Forward Flips: mid or high?

5. Tic Tocs?

6. Loops?

7. Throttle hold while in a 5 ft hover?

8. Throttle hold at 200ft for an auto?

Any other tuning secrets of the gods would be much appreciated!

Saturday morning I flew my helicopter in my pajamas
How it got in my pajamas I'll never know

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06-04-2009 12:03 AM  9 years agoPost 2
george0079

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USA

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With or without governor?

And, what engine?

Hell... I can fix that.
Uh oh..
Nope.
It's ***ked!!!
RE-KIT!!!!!

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06-04-2009 12:26 AM  9 years agoPost 3
Rockohaulic

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Canyon Country, CA, USA, 3rd Rock from the Sun

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You tune without the governor. But I guess for forward flips and tic tocs you would be in idle up, so you would have the governor on...

And this is a generic question about tuning the mid and high needles on a 3 needle, 90 size engine.

Saturday morning I flew my helicopter in my pajamas
How it got in my pajamas I'll never know

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06-04-2009 01:33 AM  9 years agoPost 4
gftazz

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upstate N.Y. in the Adirondacks

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The idle needle usually on the carb only has an effect up to 1/4 to 1/3 throttle.

The MAIN Needle is the MASTER needle that you set up first as it usually has an effect from 1/4 or 1/3 throttle on up to full throttle.

The Middle needle generally only affects it right around 1/4 or 1/3 up to just shy of maybe 3/4 throttle right in the middle.

Full throttle climbout is generally used to set the main needle and you listen for sag (lean) or bog (rich) you want it (without excessive pitch which can be added later for the pop) the motor to sound the same while climbing out with a nice good smoke trail comming out of the exhaust.

Then when you get that set you can hold an extended hover and see if it sounds lean or rich and adjust the Middle needle acordingly.

3/4 climbout will be a combo of the main and mid needles.

Flips will be more around mid throttle so hover point settings.
4. 5. 6. 7. 8. more of the same.

When you hit throttle hold and the motor drops right down into an idle then you have got it right, if it hangs on then your lean, if it dies you are rich.

The main needle will have more of an effect on the motor and tuning than anything else.!!!! When idling then that is the low needle only when you remove the glow driver the engine tune shouldn't change at all or you are off or have a bad plug.
The middle needle you add or subtract to smooth out the motor in the middle.

Now on the YS the middle needle may have more of an effect on the motor tuning than the OS carb setup does.

ALWAYS tune the motor without a Governor or limiter or carbsmart turn them OFF for motor tuning.

Use less pitch like -10 to +10 or -11 to +11or maybe even -12 to + 12 to do your climbout so it's not the pitch loading down the motor causing it to bog out untill the main needle is set then you can put in your -14 +14 or 15 if you want to.

Better to err on slightly a couple of clicks rich always than trying for max settings for all out power.

Oh No Someone Please Stop Me Before I Go Broke With This Heli Thing!!

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06-04-2009 03:16 AM  9 years agoPost 5
Louisiana Helicam

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West Monroe, LA

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You're an Elite Veteran?

www.louisianahelicam.com

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06-04-2009 04:36 AM  9 years agoPost 6
Rockohaulic

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Canyon Country, CA, USA, 3rd Rock from the Sun

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You're an Elite Veteran?
And your constructive input would be???

Saturday morning I flew my helicopter in my pajamas
How it got in my pajamas I'll never know

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06-04-2009 04:39 AM  9 years agoPost 7
Rockohaulic

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Canyon Country, CA, USA, 3rd Rock from the Sun

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gftazz,

Dude, that is some seriously value added information!

Thanks!

Saturday morning I flew my helicopter in my pajamas
How it got in my pajamas I'll never know

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06-04-2009 07:24 AM  9 years agoPost 8
brcg123

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Wagoner OK USA

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I was having questions about tuning my OSszP hyper engine and went to Curtis Youngbloods site and he said he turns the mid needle off while doing punch outs to set the high needle, then when it sounded good at 3/4 to full throttle, he hovered it again and opened the mid needle up to richen the mix for lowspeed sound and cooling at hover. My question is if it hangs on the pipe in air, which needle do you richen, the high needle or the low needle?








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06-04-2009 10:16 AM  9 years agoPost 9
JAGNZ

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Auckland, New Zealand

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My question is if it hangs on the pipe in air, which needle do you richen, the high needle or the low needle?
As long as the low needle passes the pinch test then you would adjust the high needle.


Jason Greenwood

www.3dheli.co.nz

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06-04-2009 04:27 PM  9 years agoPost 10
ckd

rrApprentice

Saugus CA

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The book that comes with the engine shows the curve and where each needle takes over. Setting the HZ was pretty straight forward if you follow what the book says.

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06-04-2009 05:12 PM  9 years agoPost 11
eperez74

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Tulsa, OK

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Here is the graph CKD is talking about.

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06-05-2009 03:05 AM  9 years agoPost 12
gftazz

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upstate N.Y. in the Adirondacks

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JAGNZ is right. Hanging in the air meaning right after a hard maneuver is the main needle first and then maybe a bit on the mid if you were doing mostly mid throttle maneuver.

If it hangs when you chop the throttle or hit throttle hold and doesn't drop into a pretty close to an instant clean idle then you are lean, richen the high needle a bit.

If it won't stay idling for a long time and then cleanly throttle up it's the idle needle and some midrange needle at the 1/4 to 1/3 throttle point when opening the throttle up to spool up if it revs real fast it may be lean and if it chokes up it's rich.

If you remove the glow ignitor and the idle rpm drops it's rich or your plug is going bad.

All the above is with MUFFLER PRESSURE.

NOW on PUMPED MOTORS it will be a bit different as the pump is driving the fuel harder to the regulator and so hence what was said about the middle needle maybe being closed or just 1/2 a turn open and the high closed down closer to 1 and 1/4 to as low as 1 turn out on the OS91 motors.

ON YS motors the high needle says right in the instructions it will be around 1 to as low as 3/4 turns out, but the mid needle will be 1 1/2 to 1 1/4 out or maybe 1 turn.

ROCKOHAULIC your welcome. I am one of the lucky ones I guess it kind of comes natural and I have a pretty good ear whan I hear a motor running to be able to tell if it's happy or not(rich or lean). You just have to listen to it. If you got it right and it's grunting down then it's the ammount of pitch your trying to feed it at any given point and time.

Tom

Oh No Someone Please Stop Me Before I Go Broke With This Heli Thing!!

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06-05-2009 03:46 AM  9 years agoPost 13
flustercluck

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Newnan Ga (Just S. of ATL)

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Fiddle with your needles til your heli runs good (sorry, couldn't help it)

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06-05-2009 06:10 AM  9 years agoPost 14
brcg123

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Wagoner OK USA

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NOW on PUMPED MOTORS it will be a bit different as the pump is driving the fuel harder to the regulator and so hence what was said about the middle needle maybe being closed or just 1/2 a turn open and the high closed down closer to 1 and 1/4 to as low as 1 turn out on the OS91 motors.
I am using the OSsz.91 pumped hyper engine, and I have been having trouble with my setup, The pipe I have been running is the mp2 which stripped out and flew off at around 150ft off the ground, strike one.
Im using the magnum no nitro fuel and I seemed to be getting close to having the correct settings, plenty of power, and running 125 on the side of the engine, then, we ran out of fuel and ordered some more this past April, and when we ordered the new fuel, Buzz changed his game plan and now its a different formula, change needles again, strike two.
Now I have the new fuel, I am changing the needle settings again, and changed to the Outrage pipe. So, I am trying to figure the needles once again, and its a crap shoot where I need to start at now. I am gonna go to the field today and see if I can start from scratch, I had the low needle set at around 4 o'clock, and the mid at 4-5 clicks open, and the high needle at 3/4 open, and with the first no nitro fuel it was great, but now it changes all needles 1/4 of a turn fatter for the new formula. with the Outrage pipe, it will be really different settings i think. what do you guys think I should start off at on the needles? If I go with the 1/4 turn advise, I will be at about 3 o'clock on the low, and 1/4 to 1/2 on the mid and 1 to 1 1/4 on the high needle. does that sound right on the sz hyper, or should I go higher on the settings to start with? remember Im using Magnum no nitro fuel.








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06-05-2009 08:07 PM  9 years agoPost 15
jackheli

rrProfessor

Vancouver - Canada

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It is my understanding that top end needle affects the whole range of the carb, while idle (2 needle carb) or mid (three needle carb) up to about 60%.

Having said that, you would adjust the top end for full throttle climbouts and the mid for all the rest. That means that other than super loading stunts (such as tight funnels etc...) EVERYTHING else runs on the mid- that includes Hovering, Multiple Forward Flips, Tic Tocs, Loops, Throttle hold while in a 5 ft hover or Throttle hold at 200ft for an auto.

Adjust your top needle for a climbout. Check it with an auto hitting hold while still in a 10 second full throttle climbout. The engine should not hang on the pipe.

THEN adjust your mid to have good transitions and power in tic-tocs, etc...

It's easy to find an excuse to do wrong. Hard is not to find an excuse to do right.

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06-05-2009 11:29 PM  9 years agoPost 16
alchemist

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Auckland,New Zealand

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I'm running a cline HZ setup and this is my experience.

Tune the main needle by using the climbout technique. Then in order to get "power" eg: tic tocs, funnels, rolls etc with no bog the mid needle needs to be tuned.

My understanding is just after the engine is loaded and unloaded, it drops into the mid needle range. So the mid needle is about recovery and transition. Even if the main needle is tuned you wont get "power" until the mid is right as transitions back to the main needle will be poorly tuned.

What seems to work for me is to tune the main needle first using a full climbout. Then to get "power" switch to idle up (gov mode) and tune the mid needle. I use aileron tic tocs as my main benchmark. I'm not saying this is 100% right but it's working for me.

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06-06-2009 12:17 AM  9 years agoPost 17
JAGNZ

rrProfessor

Auckland, New Zealand

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On ALL OS90 3 needle carbs, the Mid Needle is a transition needle only. In fact the easiest thing to do is close it for initial tuning. Pinch test for low, hard loading/auto/backplate test to set the high and then set the mid for smooth transition.

Having said that, the SZ was the hardest pig of a motor to tune I have ever owned. Some have good luck with em, I did not. The HZ is a dream come true for OS fans.


Jason Greenwood

www.3dheli.co.nz

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06-06-2009 12:24 AM  9 years agoPost 18
brcg123

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Wagoner OK USA

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hey guys, just got in from setting the needles on my OS, I did what you said with the climb outs, wound up with 1 1/2 turns on the high needle, and 1 turn on the mid needle and about 10% rich side of middle on low needle. with those settings I was getting 130 degrees on the side of the engine on the OS emblem. wow, what a difference! I had been running the mp2 pipe that came with the heli when I bought it, but after it shot off the side from the screws letting loose in flight, I put an Outrage .90 size muffler on it and dang what a difference in power. I had the most power that I have had yet with this heli. Thanks a million for the advise, it pays to listen.








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06-06-2009 05:06 AM  9 years agoPost 19
JetFire

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The Golden STATE

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This is good info guys. I'm about to tackle my first owned 3needle motor myself and doing as much research as I can prior to doing so.
the Mid Needle is a transition needle only. In fact the easiest thing to do is close it for initial tuning
Now 'JAG'.. that is interesting because my Align 91 manual recommends that I start with both mid and high setting at 2 full turns out. However, I just might try your approach because it makes more sense. Also, when you guys are referring to a climbout... is that basically a full climb with everything you got? I'm still trying to get all these terms down.
I put an Outrage .90 size muffler on it and dang what a difference in power. I had the most power that I have had yet with this heli
'Brc,'
Glad to hear about the Outrage 90. Its the same muffler I'm rigging my 700 with but haven't put it to test yet and after hearing what you had to say, it sounds promising.


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06-06-2009 05:57 AM  9 years agoPost 20
brcg123

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Wagoner OK USA

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after hearing what you had to say, it sounds promising.
Absolutly!! I am very pleased with the Outrage muffler. I would recomend it to anyone that doesnt want to spend the 200.00 for the "other guy". with 50% replacement, come on...








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