RunRyder RC
WATCH
 2 pages [ <<    <    ( 1 )     2     NEXT    >> ] 2416 views POST REPLY
HomeAircraftHelicopterAerobatic FAI F3C F3N Contest › Roll to Elev Mixing - JR 12X
06-03-2009 05:20 PM  9 years agoPost 1
rocket_33

rrElite Veteran

Mount Pleasant, Michigan USA

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

I would like to get some opinions on a starting point for ail/elev mix for roll manouvers. I have been working on my rolls but am not happy with them and would like to look at taking advantage of the electronic mixing the radio has. I am using a 12X and have been reading some of the suggestions but would like a bit more detail how to apply it to the 12X.

I realize it will need to be fine tuned but a starting point would be really helpful as I have not used these mixes before.

The heli I am working with is a Vigor CS.

Thank you in advance

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
06-08-2009 12:43 AM  9 years agoPost 2
Furious Predator

rrProfessor

Kitchener, Ontario, Canada

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

why not just practice at making your rolls better?

you need to be flying level when you do them. i do them at high speed, and right before doing the loop, i pull back a little bit to be level and then do the roll. the momentum from the FF you have keeps it going.

Shawn
Team Leisure-Tech
Team HelixRC

PM  EMAIL  HOMEPAGE  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
07-20-2009 09:46 PM  9 years agoPost 3
RAK402

rrElite Veteran

Alhambra, CA

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

"why not just practice at making your rolls better?"

Always, you should fly the machine through the roll, but you should do everything they can to tune the helicopter so that if flies as straight as possible.

I have been able to eliminate, or almost eliminate, the tendency to pitch up half-way through rolls by a combination of phasing adjustment, balance, and use of Swash Expo (activated in the JR12X radio)-until now.

I am flying a Caliber 700 and, although it flies beautifully, it tends to pitch up when crossing through inverted. Tweaking the phasing did not help.

I found this page this morning:

http://www.rcprecisionheli.com/inde...basic_settings/

The last to questions and their answers were, for me, very enlightening. I put about 10% Right Aileron to aft elevator mixing in this morning, and got a much flatter roll. I still have some adjusting to do. My goal is to adjust the Caliber so that it rolls just like the other helicopters (i.e. with very, very little or no elevator required).

I am, by no means an expert on this, and am still looking for more information, but that website is very, very good.

Team KBDD/Compass Team Manger/Experience RC/Team JR Americas/WR Field Rep

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
07-20-2009 10:56 PM  9 years agoPost 4
Dr.Ben

rrMaster

Richmond, VA, USA

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

The very best pilots in the world use mixes to clean up rolls. It's not a matter of practice. The roll mixers help ensure consistency each time the maneuver is executed. It especially important to use mixers because every model rolls differently, even ones of the same type. Thus if you try to fly one model through a roll, it will require a different set of subtle inputs than the other. Properly set mixers can make two models roll effectively the exact same way with the same stick inputs.

Gordie's article is great. If you do a search under my name and rolls and/or mixers, you find several posts or more that I've made on the matter as well. If you can't find them, let me know.

Ben Minor

Peak Aircraft/Team Minicopter Team Futaba Team Kontronik USA

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
07-24-2009 05:00 AM  9 years agoPost 5
RAK402

rrElite Veteran

Alhambra, CA

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

Dr. Ben,

I took your advice and searched the forum for your posts regarding mixing, corkscrewing, etc.

I found a wealth of information from both you and Gordon Meade.

I don't pretend to have absorbed it all, and will read it again and again.

I did apply the aileron to elevator mix that you suggested to my Caliber 700 and got my first flat rolls out of it today. I am still tweaking and tuning (and trying to learn), but it is much, much better than before.

I have a long way to go in learning to use the mixes, but it is, and will continue to be, very interesting.

Thank you.

Team KBDD/Compass Team Manger/Experience RC/Team JR Americas/WR Field Rep

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
07-24-2009 02:50 PM  9 years agoPost 6
Dr.Ben

rrMaster

Richmond, VA, USA

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

Very good.

Remember that when you do your fine tuning, make changes in no more than 1-2% increments. I can easily see the effect of 2% on my models, especially at the first point on the mixers that I may or may not need to set the angle of the nose and on the last point or so which more or less defines how the model rolls once it get going.

Also, understand that the first roll of a series is much more demanding of the mix being correct. If the mix is close but not quite right, the first roll may look funky, but the ones after may straighten out an look better. Wayne Mann told me one time the consecutive rolling is all about the entry and execution of the first one. Do that right, and the rest do pretty well unless you cross control or do something silly.

Ben

Peak Aircraft/Team Minicopter Team Futaba Team Kontronik USA

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
07-24-2009 03:59 PM  9 years agoPost 7
RAK402

rrElite Veteran

Alhambra, CA

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

Ben,

Thank you again.

Any further information regarding setting up the muli-point mixes would be greatly appreciated.

You mentioned about the first roll of a series being more demanding-I believe I am seeing this.

I am using straight Aileron-Elevator mixing on my right rolls and have noticed that sometimes I am getting a pull to the right as the model rolls on its right side the first time (first roll). If I put in a very, very small touch of down elevator right when the roll begins, the roll is straight, as are any following rolls.

Rolling into a slow split-s, you can see the model pulling to the right a bit too.

I am thinking the multi-point mix you suggested might be a way t correct this?

Thank you in advance.

Team KBDD/Compass Team Manger/Experience RC/Team JR Americas/WR Field Rep

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
07-24-2009 04:11 PM  9 years agoPost 8
Dr.Ben

rrMaster

Richmond, VA, USA

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

You use multipoint mixes either when you really don't need the mix to come in until the model is well on its side (the time it roughly takes to smoothly move the stick all the way over) or when you need to "set" the nose at the start of a roll. In some cases, the mix at the very start of the roll when you first start moving the stick may actually go a few percent the other direction. All you do is set a point or two near center stick and adjust them until the nose behaves itself.

Now, I'll wager the roll direction that is asking you to add a little bit of down elevator is a right roll. The model is probably trying to pitch up just a little at the start of the roll. If this is true, you most likely don't need down elevator. Just use a muli-point mix and keep the mix flat until the last 2-3 points. Keeping the mix flat at first prevents the UP ele from the LINEAR right roll mixer from lifting the nose at the start of the roll. Set the percent of those last few points until the nose stays on a line in the first and following rolls.

Ben

Peak Aircraft/Team Minicopter Team Futaba Team Kontronik USA

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
07-24-2009 04:38 PM  9 years agoPost 9
RAK402

rrElite Veteran

Alhambra, CA

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

Ben,

Thank you very much for the very prompt reply.

Is there anywhere that I can go to find all of this information, rather than driving you crazy with questions?

I have found a wealth of information on the "Precision Heli" site, but it seems like there must be even more information out there.

Team KBDD/Compass Team Manger/Experience RC/Team JR Americas/WR Field Rep

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
07-24-2009 07:44 PM  9 years agoPost 10
Dr.Ben

rrMaster

Richmond, VA, USA

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

There isn't a single think tank for all of this stuff. A comparatively small number of pilots have this stuff in their heads because the flying style that uses and needs this info is so small compared to the general population, and an even smaller number of that group takes the time to explain it when asked.

FWIW, you're not bothering me one bit.

Ben

Peak Aircraft/Team Minicopter Team Futaba Team Kontronik USA

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
07-25-2009 04:41 AM  9 years agoPost 11
RAK402

rrElite Veteran

Alhambra, CA

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

Dr. Ben,

Thank you again.

The multi-point mix was much more effective than the straight mix.

I am getting just a bit of pull to the right at the beginning of the roll and a bit of nose up as the roll completes.

I am going to try adding another point to add just a hare of down as I start moving the aileron stick, as you had also recommended here:

"In some cases, the mix at the very start of the roll when you first start moving the stick may actually go a few percent the other direction. All you do is set a point or two near center stick and adjust them until the nose behaves itself."

Thank you for all the information! This is making things quite a bit more interesting.

Team KBDD/Compass Team Manger/Experience RC/Team JR Americas/WR Field Rep

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
08-01-2009 02:35 AM  9 years agoPost 12
MANCHA

rrVeteran

Cabo San Lucas, Baja- Mexico

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

with a 12X JR radio you can do your mix on idle-1 or idle-2.

I use idle-1 for climbing type aerobatics and idle-2 for horizontals such as rolls.

I use a strait mix at 7%; SG90 FAI setted heli.

MANCHA

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
08-01-2009 06:00 AM  9 years agoPost 13
RAK402

rrElite Veteran

Alhambra, CA

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

I did, by the way, find a pretty gross setup error in my Caliber 700, which was aggravating the roll/pitch-up problem.

I corrected it, but have left the P-Mix in, as it rolls really flat now.

I need to add one for down elevator now, as I want nice, straight outside loops, but I am having trouble telling which way to add the mix (left or right).

I am not very comfortable with outside loops and can't tell which way to add the correction (I can correct it in flight, but can't seem to make the mental note of which way I am correcting-dumb!).

Team KBDD/Compass Team Manger/Experience RC/Team JR Americas/WR Field Rep

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
08-01-2009 01:54 PM  9 years agoPost 14
Dr.Ben

rrMaster

Richmond, VA, USA

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

Assuming you don't have any eCCPM-based ele>ail interaction, the mix for the outside loops will be down ELE>left ail. Keep an eye on what the yaw axis is doing too, becuase even the best gyros will sometimes overcorrect the yaw. You may need an ele>rud mix to get it really perfect. Understand, too, that the less comfortable you are with a maneuver the more you'll see the need for the mixes because you're not subconsciously correcting for this stuff like you do with inside loops, for example.

Ben Minor

Peak Aircraft/Team Minicopter Team Futaba Team Kontronik USA

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
08-02-2009 05:17 AM  9 years agoPost 15
RAK402

rrElite Veteran

Alhambra, CA

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

Dr. Ben,

Thank you again for the information.

Pushing the nose down into an outside loop from straight and level upright flight is starting to get slightly less unnerving, but still gets the adrenaline up (I always used a Split-S to loose altitude or reverse direction to set up for the next manuever).

Slightly more comfortable is entering the outside loop from inverted forward flight, but this is a little sporty too, at the moment.

I do, by the way, think I now have the CCPM interactions out of the Caliber 700 (caused by me).

I will try a bit of down ELE>left ail mix, per your advice, and try to keep from introducing any unwanted stick movements.

I had no idea about the ELE>rud mix.

Again, I greatly appreciate all of the help and advice. I have been flying for years and years, but never entered this particular aspect of set-up.

The more I learn about it, the more I realize that I need to learn...

Team KBDD/Compass Team Manger/Experience RC/Team JR Americas/WR Field Rep

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
08-04-2009 01:42 AM  9 years agoPost 16
RAK402

rrElite Veteran

Alhambra, CA

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

rocket_33,

This is what I did with the 12X. I am just trying to learn to use these mixes so I cannot tell if the setup is optimal or could be better.

It did help considerably, in terms of achieving a nice, flat roll though:

I went into the "List" and selected "Prog Mix 54"

Selected "Curve Mix"

Changed the default "THRO>THRO" TO "AIL>ELEV"

Went to "SW SEL" and changed "Norm", "ST-1" and "ST-2" to "On"
(this should make the mix operate in these three flight modes-I am not sure if this is technically correct-it probably is not).

Moved the Aileron Stick to the right and observed the operation of the vertical line on the graph (mine moves left if I move the stick right).

Moved the stick to the right until it was about half way through the travel and then pressed the bottom of the four buttons on the left side of the transmitter face when the screen displayed the word "Store". This established a point roughly where I thought I wanted it.

Rolled the "Rolling Selector to "Point 0" far left, clicked the selector, then rolled in +20 just to create enough of a mix to watch the swashplate and servos and observe their operation-this was the incorrect direction, so I went to -20 and was able to see the swashplate tip back when I hit right Aileron. I backed this down to -8 as I did not know how much was needed.

I went back to the point I had established (Point 1) and set it to "-3".

I flew the machine and rolled it. It was better than it had been before with the straight mix from the "Swash" menu, but it still pulled the nose up a bit towards the right as the ship crossed through 90 degrees (on its right side).

I added one more point (Point 2)as close as I could to Point 3 (the 50% or center aileron stick) and set it to "+3", trying to introduce a bit of down elevator as the roll starts to keep the nose down (again, per Dr. Ben's advice).

This flattened the roll even further.

I am suspicious that, If I eliminated Point 1, I could get an ever flatter roll, but have not tried yet.

Hopefully Dr. Ben will comment on this, as I am sure there is lots of room for improvement.

All of his assistance has been greatly appreciated.

Team KBDD/Compass Team Manger/Experience RC/Team JR Americas/WR Field Rep

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
08-04-2009 02:03 AM  9 years agoPost 17
Dr.Ben

rrMaster

Richmond, VA, USA

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

You're doing it right, my friend.

It takes a lot of fuel and little 1-2% mix changes to get it just right.

WRT the initial points to set the nose, it is VERY, VERY critical to move the stick over at the same rate every time you roll. The reason for this is that the speed with which to deflect the stick determines how long the model "sees" the nosing setting point. Get the point set just right and then move the stick too fast, and the value will appear too little. The reverse holds true if you move the stick to slowly.

Other things...........today's servos are strong as hell and just as fast. The speed isn't always your friend. If you enter a roll and lay the stick over too fast, you'll yaw the tail, even with a great gyro. I use a menu in the 14MZ to slightly slow the speed of the roll servo as I move the stick off center (normal speed for return to center). This helps contribute to roll consistency, at least in my hands.

Ben

Peak Aircraft/Team Minicopter Team Futaba Team Kontronik USA

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
08-04-2009 02:34 AM  9 years agoPost 18
RAK402

rrElite Veteran

Alhambra, CA

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

Dr. Ben,

Thank you very much!

I am now going to move on to the down elevator>left aileron mix...

Team KBDD/Compass Team Manger/Experience RC/Team JR Americas/WR Field Rep

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
08-04-2009 08:33 PM  9 years agoPost 19
RAK402

rrElite Veteran

Alhambra, CA

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

Dr. Ben,

I did something a bit different this morning.

I took the Mini-Titan out (sort of the polar opposite of the Caliber 700). I have been doing outside loops with it and it definitely rolled to the right. I added a down elevator to left aileron mix (not multi-point) and it took a about 90% of the tendency to roll out of it.

Would a multi-point mix work better here?

I am doing outside loops of various diameters, and outside flips, so I don't know if the multi-point mixing is suitable.

I will be adding this mix to the Caliber in the next day or so.

Thank you in advance.

Team KBDD/Compass Team Manger/Experience RC/Team JR Americas/WR Field Rep

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
08-05-2009 05:21 AM  9 years agoPost 20
Dr.Ben

rrMaster

Richmond, VA, USA

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

The ele>ail mix differs for tight flips versus more open loops, but for the most part, a simple linear mix that is tweaked over the average range of sizes of loops that you'll do will be quite adequate to make things look good. The rolls are far more demanding of the mix because of the way the model behaves at the start of the roll when the swash first deflects when the model is right side up versus what it does once it goes on over on its side and gets inverted. Remember; 3/4 of the effort at getting good rolls is involved in initiating them well. Once the model is rolling, it'll tend to straighten up with each consecutive roll, even when the mixers aren't dead nuts correct.

Ben

Peak Aircraft/Team Minicopter Team Futaba Team Kontronik USA

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
WATCH
 2 pages [ <<    <    ( 1 )     2     NEXT    >> ] 2416 views POST REPLY
HomeAircraftHelicopterAerobatic FAI F3C F3N Contest › Roll to Elev Mixing - JR 12X
 Print TOPIC  Make Suggestion 

 4  Topic Subscribe

Thursday, August 16 - 10:49 pm - Copyright © 2000-2018 RunRyder   EMAILEnable Cookies

Login Here
 New Subscriptions 
 Buddies Online