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05-14-2009 08:59 PM  10 years ago
CNCAddict

rrApprentice

Newport, N.C.

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Janis, yes it's the 4030/2.5y, not sure on the pinion and headspeed. Mr Mel, your results are interesting. By chance did you measure the Mah usage with both motors? My goal was to build an ultra efficient motor with lots of power.

When a motor's load increases, the current flow in the windings is directly related to the rpm drop and resistance in the windings. The Scorpion has a lower Rm than the X-Era, so it will pull a bit more current...however the Scorpion also has a much higher Io current and will run hotter. This reduces the motor Kt based on the temperature coefficient of the magnets. Therefore the power output of the X-Era should be more consistent over the flight, and with back to back flying.

David B.
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05-14-2009 09:03 PM  10 years ago
MrMel

rrProfessor

Gotland

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Aha, your the designer didnt know that.

Anyway, your motor IS ultra efficent, but as for top edge power, the scorpion is my choice, no contest,
but Im a total powerjunkie, keep that in mind...

as I posted in another thread;

Xera vs Scorpion in Core temp after ONE flight its about equal, but in back to back flights the Xera stay at same temp where as the Scorpion raises (in our climate here) with 15C.
Outer can on the Xera is cool at all times, but I measured with probe inside after the fligths.
Gone fishing..or hunting..or something
My site: http://heli.dacsa.net - VBar videos and more
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05-14-2009 09:09 PM  10 years ago
CNCAddict

rrApprentice

Newport, N.C.

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Thanks for the graphs. Very helpful. Yes I designed the motor so I need to make sure my customers are happy

It seems you are running a governor on these motors. It would be more accurate to turn off the governor. As it is, each motor would require different gains in the control loop to make a fair comparison. If you want the X-Era to bog the same as the Scorpion, your proportional gain should be increased. my 2c
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05-14-2009 09:11 PM  10 years ago
MrMel

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Gotland

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Turn off the governor on a Jive would be like putting an elevator in an outhouse, it just dont belong

Its _the_ worlds best governor.
If the motor doesnt work with that one, then its an issue.
Gone fishing..or hunting..or something
My site: http://heli.dacsa.net - VBar videos and more
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05-14-2009 09:17 PM  10 years ago
MrMel

rrProfessor

Gotland

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CNCAddict, just for your info, in my L700, where I use a 470 vs the S500, its the other way around, just about same close call, but still 470 it first out of that battle.

Same governor.

Running 12s, lower peak amps overall though
Gone fishing..or hunting..or something
My site: http://heli.dacsa.net - VBar videos and more
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05-14-2009 09:22 PM  10 years ago
jphilli

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Atlanta, Ga.

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David, in case you didn't catch it, the Mah usage is posted at the top of the graphs.

For the X-era, there was 2377 Mah used. For the Scorpion, there was 2661 Mah used.
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05-14-2009 09:37 PM  10 years ago
CNCAddict

rrApprentice

Newport, N.C.

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Your tests are useful, but with the governor mixed in the results it is extremely difficult to know what is happening with the actual motor and not the governor gains, etc. The governor is an unknown variable. The gains may or may not need to be the same between different motors. It's a black box, and we don't know what magic elf kontronik is using to control the headspeed.
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05-15-2009 07:07 AM  10 years ago
MrMel

rrProfessor

Gotland

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Thats why I fly 20 flights with each motor or so to give an avg.
With gain you think CC, Kontronik doesnt really work that way.

Generally, heli applications is lousy comparison beds, until you can replicate exact flights over and over, (because "oh, it didnt have as much power, therefor I might unwillingly overcompensate with more pitch, or this has more power, then you throw it around extra because it was fun"

Easy to feel the power, hard to get it in numbers.
Gone fishing..or hunting..or something
My site: http://heli.dacsa.net - VBar videos and more
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05-15-2009 07:18 AM  10 years ago
blueviewlaguna

rrNovice

Laguna Beach, California

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I have the XERA 4025 2.5Y and the Jive 80HV. Mr Mel, I believe the differences you are seeing between the motors are the result of the interaction between the Jive governor and the XERA - in other words for a meaningful comparison, you must either attempt to get the Jive to treat the XERA exactly like the Scorpion by adjusting the setup - larger pinion with a lower %, adjusting parameters, etc. OR run with no governor (just to test). The variable here is the governor. As David said, the XERA and Scorpion are different electrically, so it will take a different setup to allow the XERA to be both more powerful on the high end and more efficient - at the moment, I believe that all of the XERA's advantages are being using for greater efficiency in your setup.
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05-15-2009 07:24 AM  10 years ago
MrMel

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Gotland

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Its currently geared to be the dead center on optimal setup for the governor, re-gearing would mean going away from optimal setup.

Plus, comparing the 470 vs 500 I used exact same method, and results are the other way around.

Sure I can probably overgear it to get same performance out of the 560, but at what cost, then it wont be effective anymore...
Gone fishing..or hunting..or something
My site: http://heli.dacsa.net - VBar videos and more
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05-15-2009 08:17 AM  10 years ago
Big Fil

rrKey Veteran

Santa Rosa, CA

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Great discussion guys. Just got my Xera 4030 going in my Logo 600. I have not tried any other motors in this bird at this point so I can't compare. What I can do is show some flight data for the sake of flight data. This is flight #4 on this bird. I've flown it fairly hard at this point but haven't given it everything yet till the batteries are broken in and I build up some trust in the girl. I'll try to get some more data this weekend as well as well as temps as it's supposed to be 100 degrees this weekend.

Setup is

Logo 600 Vbar
Xera 4030 2.5Y 560kv
18T mod 0.7
Jive 80HV
Outrage 10S 4200
7.98lbs AUW

2350 @ 75% gov (not run in these flights)
2200 @ 65% gov
2100 @ 58% gov
2000 @ 50% gov

Temp sensor mounted around the lower most fin on the stationary base. Max temp in flight was 102F with a peak rise up to 115 after shutdown (off graph). Ambient temp was 75F

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05-15-2009 12:30 PM  10 years ago
Janis

rrApprentice

Århus, Denmark

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Janis, yes it's the 4025/2.5y, not sure on the pinion and headspeed
Hi Dave,

You mean 4030-2,5Y? the above is a 500-600 Motor as I saw on your website.

Janis
...exist something better than V-bar and women...
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05-15-2009 06:14 PM  10 years ago
CNCAddict

rrApprentice

Newport, N.C.

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Whoops, yeah I fixed the motor model #, it should be 4030/2.5y-560. It's the most popular for the 700 on 10 and 12s.

Slim, that graph looks excellent. It's kinda small, but looks like your dropping only 100rpm at 125A. You're also doing everything right to get those nice low motor temps
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05-15-2009 07:26 PM  10 years ago
jphilli

rrKey Veteran

Atlanta, Ga.

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Slim, the graph hows that you pulled 5289 Mah but you said you're running this on a 4200 Mah pack. What's up with that?

Edit: Looks like you started with some Mah already pulled so my guess is that your EagleTree keeps recording after you've landed.
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05-15-2009 10:23 PM  10 years ago
Big Fil

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Santa Rosa, CA

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Start point was 2345 mah end point was 5289. Total used through the flight was 2944 mah on a 6.5 min flight.

ET reads the mah as cumulative until you clear the memory. I wish it would reset it when power was disconnected.
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05-16-2009 05:56 AM  10 years ago
jphilli

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Atlanta, Ga.

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My ET is setup so that every time I disconnect to power to change a pack, everything refreshes. If you shoot me a PM I can check my settings when I get home on Sunday.
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05-19-2009 10:51 PM  10 years ago
SMITHB72866

rrVeteran

FLORIDA

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That Video is my Trex 700 being passed around @ SEFF

Matt b was @ the sticks during that Video

I Can honestly say it was flying good .
After Seff i put the governer back on and did some more testing with the K2 batterys

I Totally agree the Scorpion 4035- 560 produces more power governed right over the Xera

More power then in video

Anyone that needs the setup just let men know
RREmodels
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05-19-2009 11:59 PM  10 years ago
PJRono

rrKey Veteran

Minnesota, Ya!

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Not only that, but just try to get a Xera!If you skip me I can't play!
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05-20-2009 01:11 AM  10 years ago
misskimo

rrElite Veteran

Alaska 17 years, before mississippi for 31y

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Ha ha. Too funny. You can get the motor. And yep. It's limited , but it will get better, also , the power from both motors are great! Remember the fun
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05-21-2009 08:42 PM  10 years ago
CNCAddict

rrApprentice

Newport, N.C.

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I think Esprit has most of the 4025 and 4030's in stock, and I'll have some 4035's coming in a few days. As for power, the motor is optimized to be very efficient. The X-Era is similar to the Actro or Neu in this regard, the Scorpions will run a bit warmer and you'll have less flight time. Any of these motors will fly your heli with plenty of power, but some of them will run cooler than others doing the same thing.
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