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HomeOff Topics News & Politics › Will Bush officials ever be prosecuted for ‘enhanced interrogation’ program?
04-24-2009 11:50 PM  9 years agoPost 1
minan

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FROM CNN’s Jack Cafferty:

The torture debate continues to heat up in Washington; with President Obama and top Senate Democrats pushing back against the creation of an independent commission to investigate the Bush administration’s approval of so-called enhanced interrogation techniques.

Some Democrats like House Speaker Nancy Pelosi have been calling for an independent panel — like the 9/11 commission — to look into waterboarding and other harsh techniques.

But the president says a special inquiry would take away time and energy from his policy agenda, and could end up being a distraction looking back on the Bush years. Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid backed the president, saying everyone should wait for the results of an investigation by the Senate Intelligence Committee due out late this year.

Yet it’s unclear how much of that panel’s findings will ever be made public, since this is an investigation dealing mostly with classified information.

Meanwhile a new Senate report shows that top Bush administration officials approved the use of waterboarding as early as 2002 and 2003 — the harsh methods were approved by the likes of then National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice, Attorney General John Ashcroft, CIA Director George Tenet, and Vice President Dick Cheney. Maybe that’s one reason we’re hearing so much from Cheney these days.

And expect for more of this stuff to keep dripping out… The ACLU says that the Defense Department will soon release “a substantial number” of photos showing abuse of prisoners in Iraq and Afghanistan; these could prove that prisoner abuse during the Bush administration was widespread and reached far beyond Abu Ghraib.

Here’s my question to you: Will Bush administration officials who authorized and oversaw the enhanced interrogation program ever be prosecuted?

http://caffertyfile.blogs.cnn.com/2...gation-program/

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04-24-2009 11:53 PM  9 years agoPost 2
Dennis (RIP)

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Meanwhile a new Senate report shows that top Bush administration officials approved the use of waterboarding as early as 2002 and 2003 — the harsh methods were approved by the likes of then National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice, Attorney General John Ashcroft, CIA Director George Tenet, and Vice President Dick Cheney. Maybe that’s one reason we’re hearing so much from Cheney these days.
Yes, and all the top Democrats were briefed on this as well in 2002.

Of course, Palosi uses here liberal trick language to deny it.

Liberty once lost, is lost forever.

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04-25-2009 12:02 AM  9 years agoPost 3
minan

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Reagan's DOJ Prosecuted Texas Sheriff For Waterboarding Prisoners

George W. Bush’s Justice Department said subjecting a person to the near-drowning of waterboarding was not a crime and didn’t even cause pain, but Ronald Reagan’s Justice Department thought otherwise, prosecuting a Texas sheriff and three deputies for using the practice to get confessions.

Federal prosecutors secured a 10-year sentence against the sheriff and four years in prison for the deputies. But that 1983 case – which would seem to be directly on point for a legal analysis on waterboarding two decades later – was never mentioned in the four Bush administration opinions released last week.

The failure to cite the earlier waterboarding case and a half-dozen other precedents that dealt with torture is reportedly one of the critical findings of a Justice Department watchdog report that legal sources say faults former Bush administration lawyers – Jay Bybee, John Yoo and Steven Bradbury – for violating “professional standards.”

Bybee, Yoo and Bradbury also shocked many who have read their memos in the last week by their use of clinical and legalistic jargon that sometimes took on an otherworldly or Orwellian quality. Bybee’s Aug. 1, 2002, legal memo – drafted by Yoo – argued that waterboarding could not be torture because it does not “inflict physical pain.”

During the procedure, a subject is strapped down to a bench with his head lower than his feet and his face covered by a cloth that is then saturated with water, cutting off his breathing and inducing the panic reflex that a person feels while drowning.

“You have informed us that this procedure does not inflict actual physical harm,” Bybee wrote. “Thus, although the subject may experience the fear or panic associated with the feeling of drowning, the waterboard does not inflict physical pain. ... The waterboard is simply a controlled acute episode, lacking the connotation of a protracted period of time generally given to suffering.”

Bush administration officials approved CIA waterboarding for three “high-value” detainees, including Abu Zubaydah (believed to be an al-Qaeda logistics operative) and Khalid Sheikh Mohammed (known as KSM, the alleged mastermind of the 9/11 attacks). Zubaydah was waterboarded at least 83 times and KSM at least 183 times, according to one Justice Department memo.

http://www.pubrecord.org/torture/85...-prisoners.html

I agree Dennis prosecute all who are guilty no matter their party affiliation.

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04-25-2009 12:48 AM  9 years agoPost 4
Stet

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What if indeed what they did was legal?

Of course that is contrary to the simpleton liberal mindset who thinks that everything should be the way they see things.

Enemy combatants violating the Geneva Conventions do not qualify for the rights guaranteed in those agreements. And certainly those who fight an "illegal" war against our citizens, are not US citizens and are outside our borders do not qualify for the rights spelled out in the constitution.

You can start by prosecuting the congress members who approved the practices, starting with that liar Pelosi.

keepin' it real

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04-25-2009 03:06 AM  9 years agoPost 5
baby uh1

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While we're at it we should investigate JFK and Johnson for their illegal war in Vietnam and for how they wasted over 50,000 American lives in a war that was fought for Michellin's rubber!

Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about!

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04-25-2009 05:12 AM  9 years agoPost 6
drdot

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fwiw...

Why does anyone care what we do to Jihadist scum....Let me show them what "Enhanced" interrogation techniques really are....The scum would BEG to be waterboarded....How we win doesn't matter... only that we do...

BC

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04-25-2009 06:13 AM  9 years agoPost 7
RonHill

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drdot
How we win doesn't matter... only that we do...
I am gonna take a guess and assume you never served?

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04-25-2009 07:30 AM  9 years agoPost 8
philip 01

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a war that was fought for Michellin's rubber!
that would mean it's a conspiracy which would make you a 'crazy person' since there are no such thing as conspiracies.

say some here.

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04-25-2009 01:58 PM  9 years agoPost 9
baby uh1

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I've got my foil hat on.

Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about!

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04-26-2009 03:29 AM  9 years agoPost 10
drdot

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fwiw.../ "I'm gonna guess you've never served"

Au Contraire...6 years USN.....Just a student of cultural anthropology..

What I say is not pleasant...But that doesn't make it untrue...I'd reup right now if I could go do that voodoo that I do so well...(Apologies to Harvey Korman)

BC

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04-26-2009 05:50 AM  9 years agoPost 11
ch-47c

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I like watching babble who way out of knowing. What a lying POS. Look at her eyes and you see the eyes of insincerity and "I've been caught".

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04-27-2009 07:09 AM  9 years agoPost 12
electriciancarl

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Damned if you do, damned if you don't. The same finger pointing liberals would be sniveling about Bushes lack of action if we had suffered another or more attacks having not collected vital information through enhanced interrogation.

Personally, I don't believe it was enhanced enough. If you have to burn 1000 jihadists at the stake to save one American life, so f'n be it. Try to keep in mind, we are talking about an enemy who is a religious zealot sworn to kill us all.

When at war, an eye for an eye is a draw, but a hundred eyes for an eye is victory. I don't know about you, but if we go to war or have it declared on us I want to win. But that's just me.

Treat me good, I'll treat you better. Treat me bad, I'll treat you worse.

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04-27-2009 11:53 AM  9 years agoPost 13
Hawk4flyer

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I love the sumbliminal messages...
Texas Sheriff For Waterboarding Prisoners
"Lets see if we can make it sound like Grandma Turner from Kentucky is being beat within an inch of her life. That will make them see it out way."

I just don't get this kind of mindset.

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04-27-2009 04:35 PM  9 years agoPost 14
RonHill

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drdot
Au Contraire...6 years USN.....Just a student of cultural anthropology..
Then you should also know that intel derived from torture is the LEAST trustworthy.

Then you should also know that when you commit atrocities against a group then it creates more enemies.... Just think about 9/11. Before then most people didn't know who Bin Ladin was, or what AQ was.

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04-27-2009 04:47 PM  9 years agoPost 15
Stet

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"We created more terrorists with torture"

No, if anything the left did so by digging this stuff up and disseminating it. And I think terrorists were doing just fine at promoting their murderous ways well before any of this came up.

"We did not get any intel,"

True, only as long as the current "World Apology Tour" administration refuses to release the corresponding memos which outline just what we did learn from these methods

And compare these methods to those used by our enemies? Naah, why bother. Hizbollah, Mahdi Army, and Alqueda will all go to milk-and-cookies based interrogations if only we would lead the way. BUNK !!

keepin' it real

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04-27-2009 05:54 PM  9 years agoPost 16
BigguyOz

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You might find tis comment from Porter Goss (ex CIA Director) interesting. He claims that both sides of the political fence were fully briefed about iterrogation techniques, and offered no criticism at the time.

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/no-pl...90427-akmb.html

Posted in the interests of informed debate

Tony Stott

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04-27-2009 06:04 PM  9 years agoPost 17
Stet

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Of course they were informed. Because Bush was indeed reaching out to the other side. This goes to the lying mantra of the left saying Bush "Misled" or "Lied". So easy to research and see that was anything but the truth. It was a political thing to gain power and appeal to the leftist base. And it is completely false, but many are either deliberately ignorant of the facts, or just plain stupid. So they pretend that Bush was the bad guy.

Political practicality = intellectual dishonesty

keepin' it real

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04-27-2009 07:13 PM  9 years agoPost 18
RonHill

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Stet
"We created more terrorists with torture"

No, if anything the left did so by digging this stuff up and disseminating it. And I think terrorists were doing just fine at promoting their murderous ways well before any of this came up.
Total BS. If you had asked how many Americans were willing to go to war with AQ on September 10, 2001 I bet the answer would be DRASTICALLY different than if you asked on September 12th.

Plus there are several studies and reports that have shown AQ membership has INCREASED since the invasion. Simple logic really, most people tend to ignore things till it hits them in the face. Then they get up in arms about it.
"We did not get any intel,"

True, only as long as the current "World Apology Tour" administration refuses to release the corresponding memos which outline just what we did learn from these methods
Well, you have a point... But my point is that physical torture is considered the *least* effective method of gathering intel. Now does that mean it does not work at all? No, but physical torture leads to people confessing and telling things that are not true just to avoid more pain. Any intel gathered from physical torture is suspect.
And compare these methods to those used by our enemies? Naah, why bother. Hizbollah, Mahdi Army, and Alqueda will all go to milk-and-cookies based interrogations if only we would lead the way. BUNK !!
I never claimed they would play nice if we did. My points are:

1. Most people do not bother to fight a cause till it becomes personal.

2. Physical torture is considered to be the least effective method of gathering intel.

Saul Alinsky's rules of power tactics, excerpted from his 1971 book "Rules for Radicals: A Practical Primer for Realistic Radicals"

Rule #2. Never go outside the experience of your people.

You want to make a person mad? Show them how the bad guys killed Bob. Don't go on about how they "X" 10 years ago...Some disjointed, complex, historical situation. Show them how your buddy Bob is dead due to their actions.

Rule #4. Make the enemy live up to their own book of rules.

No one will blame YOU since you don't have those rules. But if they break their own rules then you can point out how 'evil' they are.

Rule #5. Ridicule is man's most potent weapon.

I see this one ALL the time.

Rule #9. The threat is usually more terrifying than the thing itself.

This is why saying what kinds of things we area allowed to do and what things we are not allowed to do is a big mistake.

Rule #13. Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it.

I see this all the time on here....

The simple fact is it is easy to get a group pissed off about an injustice that they have a personal connection. The fact that the bad guys killed Bob is a very common method of gathering support. Just look at all the movies where the good guy fights insurmountable odds to avenge the death of his family or friends.... You think this is just an American ideal?

Just for kicks.... all the rules:

1. Power is not only what you have but what the enemy thinks you have.
2. Never go outside the experience of your people.
3. Whenever possible go outside the experience of the enemy.
4. Make the enemy live up to their own book of rules.
5. Ridicule is man's most potent weapon.
6. A good tactic is one that your people enjoy.
7. A tactic that drags on too long becomes a drag.
8. Keep the pressure on.
9. The threat is usually more terrifying than the thing itself.
10. Maintain a constant pressure upon the opposition.
11. If you push a negative hard and deep enough it will break through into its counterside.
12. The price of a successful attack is a constructive alternative.
13. Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it.

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04-27-2009 08:17 PM  9 years agoPost 19
electriciancarl

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Then you should also know that intel derived from torture is the LEAST trustworthy.
Sorry, but I must disagree. This is just another feel good piece of political propaganda design to elicit a prescribed response.

Torture has been a historically successful method of obtaining information or forcing someone to comply, thus it has been used for thousands of years. One would have to question how if it is unreliable, its use has continued for all of that time. The questionable results you are discussing are directly related to the limitation of techniques. In that context I would agree it is suspect, however, even restricted use of physical and mental torture will net one more information than just saying "please".

The trustworthiness of the information is directly related to the interrogators skill in asking questions without leading the subject or defining a goal for the subject to attempt to reach.

Again the bigger picture. We are expecting our military and intelligence community to follow rules the enemy does not observe, and we expect them to succeed with their hands tied by these rules. All we accomplish with this is to appear soft in the enemies eyes. We will never win a war if we lack the resolve to do what must be done to win.

People seem to forget what it takes to win a war. We defeated the Japanese in world war II by cooking hundreds of thousands of innocent men, women and children, by fire bombing cities and ultimately, dropping two atomic bombs, something our current politically imposed morality would call an atrocity, but that my friends is how war is won. Those who lack the constitution for such things have no business engaging in any military action as it is sure to fail. If you doubt it, look at the Middle East.

Treat me good, I'll treat you better. Treat me bad, I'll treat you worse.

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04-28-2009 03:17 AM  9 years agoPost 20
RonHill

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Sorry, but I must disagree.
And your experience to back that up? Ever worked at a resistance lab, or even been to one?
One would have to question how if it is unreliable, its use has continued for all of that time.
Argumentum ad populum. "well it has been used for so long, it must work!" Nope, sorry. For years people thought drilling a hole in a persons head let out the evil spirits and stopped headaches. For years people thought the world was flat and the center of the universe.

It has been continued since people "think" it works. One reason they think it works is people who are tortured often do admit to whatever you accuse them of doing. The problem is they admit to it so you will stop torturing them.

So the interrogator thinks the detainee did "X". So he asks the detainee if he did "X" and when the detainee says he didn't do "X" he gets beaten. The interrogator thinks the detainee did "X". So he asks the detainee if he did "X" and when the detainee says he didn't do "X" he gets beaten. The interrogator thinks the detainee did "X". So he asks the detainee if he did "X" and when the detainee says he didn't do "X" he gets beaten. The interrogator thinks the detainee did "X". So he asks the detainee if he did "X" and when the detainee says he didn't do "X" he gets beaten. The interrogator thinsk the detainee did "X". So he asks the detainee if he did "X" and when the detainee says he didn't do "X" he gets beaten. The interrogator thinks the detainee did "X". So he asks the detainee if he did "X" and when the detainee says he didn't do "X" he gets beaten.

Eventually the detainee will admit to "X" so he does not get beaten. Then the interrogator feels the technique worked since he "got the intel"

Regrettably, history has shown that during things like the inquisition people were confessing to things that were just not possible.... Hoping that the tormentor would stop, or even kill them to end the torture.
Again the bigger picture. We are expecting our military and intelligence community to follow rules the enemy does not observe, and we expect them to succeed with their hands tied by these rules. All we accomplish with this is to appear soft in the enemies eyes.
Again in the bigger picture.... You can't kill Bob and expect Bill to welcome you to the family.

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