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HomeOff Topics News & Politics › Miss Califonia Loses After Giving 'Wrong Answer'
04-22-2009 03:47 PM  9 years agoPost 41
RonHill

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monkey nuttz
i have had lengthy discussions about this issue with a lesbian friend and i am convinced it is a genetic/biological issue.
Many times the choices that we make are made on such a complex set of data that it just "seems" right and as if it were natural/biological.

I happen to prefer brunettes. Is that also a biological preference?
I happen to like blue as a color. Is that also a biological preference?
I happen to like chocolate ice cream over vanilla and hate strawberry. Is that also a biological preference?

What else is nature, not nurture?

The problem with claiming anything is a 'biological preference' is that it takes away any responsibility for any actions. So, is a thief a crook based on genetics? If so, then how can you blame him? How do you 'fix' it?

I don't care one bit if a person is gay. If you hold a religious view against it, then you should be comfortable in your own faith knowing that God will punish them.... you don't have to do it.

Did she lose based on that question? Hell, I don't know. The ONE guy claims that is why she lost. It could be part or hell, it could be the reason.... I really don't care.

But if you looked back at the history of this dog and pony show you will see that stupid things like this have been deciding these events for as long as they have had this event.

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04-22-2009 04:30 PM  9 years agoPost 42
whirlyspud

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Like it or not, Life experience has made me believe that Gay people have no more choice to be gay than I have to be straight. I truely believe that the majority is just wired that way. Traits in adults I know today that I grew up with have lead me to believe this. Not saying it is right or wrong, or that I like it or not. It's just the way it is.

Mike

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04-22-2009 04:38 PM  9 years agoPost 43
RonHill

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whirlyspud
It's just the way it is.
It is just the way YOU THINK it is. You are trying to take personal opinions and treat it as fact.

So, is a criminal 'wired' to be a criminal?

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04-22-2009 04:48 PM  9 years agoPost 44
Dennis (RIP)

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Speaking for myself, I just don't buy this thing about being genetically disposed to be an alcoholic or being gay. Does genetics cause you to pick up a drink and bend an elbow? I don't think so. No doubt, there may be some that genetics creeps in there. But, I beleive that to be a very small percentage.

Heck, when I was younger (am 62 now), gays or homosexuals were hardly discussed and I never met one that I knew about. Now, they are everywhere. That tellsme that laws, morality, and our media allow many more people to make those choices.

Please understand. I don't hate gays and I wish them no harm. I just don't agree with redefining marriage to accomodate them with the point being "how far do we go with redefining our long held culture?"

Liberty once lost, is lost forever.

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04-22-2009 04:53 PM  9 years agoPost 45
whirlyspud

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I never said it was a fact Ron. Grow up. Read the first line I wrote again. Maybe you will understand it.
And it is the way it is. You are gay or you are not. Pretty Simple.

And Dennis, they were around, you just did not know it, and the world was much less open to it. I wish it was still that way. I don't care if someone is or is not. I don't even want to know.

Mike

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04-22-2009 05:06 PM  9 years agoPost 46
Dennis (RIP)

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Yes Mike, they were around when I was a kid. But, not in the numbers we see now. Not even close.

Now a days, when more are open about it, and it's in our media so prevalenty(sp) it simply allows more to make that choice. Heck, it's even recognized as the right thing to do in our public schools. That's why I feel strongly that when genetics enter into the picture, it's a much, much smaller percentage than claimed.

Liberty once lost, is lost forever.

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04-22-2009 05:24 PM  9 years agoPost 47
JohnLund

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Dennis, homosexuality has been a part of mankind since mankind existed, it isn't the liberal media, There was no daily Kos, or Huffington Post during the Roman empire, or ancient China.

Ron's Heliproz South

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04-22-2009 05:26 PM  9 years agoPost 48
whirlyspud

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Dennis,

It is hard to say, my father served as an MP for a while before WW2, and he said they had problems with it in the service even back then. They were not open about it at all, but they got caught.

I don't know if it is right or wrong, or if it is a choice or not. Tell me who does know. I do know that to be gay is not CHOICE that I myself could make. It just aint going to happen. Just as it repulses me, being straight likely repulses gays. Maybe it is part of Mother natures plan to kill off certain genes and promote others. I don't know.

The people that I grew up with that are openly gay now showed many of the traits back when were kids. We just never noticed it or made a big deal out of it because we did not care. Even in the same family I know one sister is, and the other is not. They were raised the same as far I know. This has all let me to believe that it is less of a choice than many think. For Ron, this is what I think, you are free to THINK what you THINK.

Mike

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04-22-2009 06:01 PM  9 years agoPost 49
RonHill

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whirlyspud
Grow up.
That the best you can do when challenged on your beliefs?
I never said it was a fact Ron.
Sure you did: "It's just the way it is." Is a declarative statement.

So is "And it is the way it is. You are gay or you are not. Pretty Simple."

Also you are using the fallacy of post hoc

The name in Latin means "after this therefore because of this". This describes the fallacy. An author commits the fallacy when it is assumed that because one thing follows another that the one thing was caused by the other.

You are claiming that since some people are gay, and others are not that therefore it MUST be do to genetics. When in truth, it could be many reasons to include choice and upbringing.
Read the first line I wrote again.
Read your quoted lines again, then maybe you will understand.

You are taking an opinion of yours and trying to treat it as a fact. Trying to insult me for calling you on it does not change that fact either.

Still have not answered this question:

So, is a criminal 'wired' to be a criminal?

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04-22-2009 06:26 PM  9 years agoPost 50
RonHill

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Dennis
Does genetics cause you to pick up a drink and bend an elbow?
Genetics can predispose a person to having a chemical imbalance that leads them to a chemical addiction. Does that mean that 100% of people who are alcoholics were 'born' that way? Nope, it just means there could be a connection.

My parents are both alcoholics. I am not. Now I do have an addictive personality.... I get into hobbies full bore (almost like an addiction) get pretty good, then when the new wears off I just pretty much quit and go do something else full bore.

Is that due to my parents having an addiction and giving me the gene (nature)? Is it due to being raised in that environment (nurture)? Is it a combination of both? Is it I just get bored easily?

I don't really know. I do know that no one really knows. I watch how much I drink since studies have shown that children of alcoholics are predisposed to alcoholism. But is that to fight the nature (genetics) or the nurture (being raised by alcoholics)?

But then some interesting questions come from both beliefs.

If you hold that it is genetics:
1. Then what else is pure genetic? Criminal tendencies? Favorite flavors? Taste for blonds?

2. If you hold something to be genetic only... then can you really hold a person accountable for their actions?

3. Can you 'fix' a person that has a 'genetic issue'? Can you prevent a person from being a criminal or gay? Should you?

If you hold that it is upbringing:
1. What other things are pure upbringing?

2. Can you really punish a person since they were not able to control the way they were raised?

3. Is it possible to change?

Now, if you hold it as a choice....Then I think you can hold people accountable for their actions. I think you can punish them for their actions, and they CAN be rehabilitated.

Also, if you want to hold that it is genetics.... What could possibly be the reason for nature to make it happen? Survival of the species is a basic trait of a species. Does nature want to control the population by introducing a subset that is not intended to reproduce as a form of population control?

Personally, I think most things are a choice.... Even if you have a predisposition. You still CHOOSE to do something. By most accounts I should be an alcoholic..... I choose not to drink much if at all.

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04-22-2009 06:51 PM  9 years agoPost 51
whirlyspud

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Ron, you are as bad as the bible thumpers that take one line and try to turn it in to something more than it is. If you can't tell that the post was my opinion, then that is your problem.
You start jumping up and down about a FACT. Be real. All these forums are is everyone's OPINION.

Mike

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04-22-2009 06:52 PM  9 years agoPost 52
Dennis (RIP)

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I'll just stick to my old fashioned, out of touch, not politically incorrect opinion of a lot of folks making some choices that may not be in their best interests.

I am not an expert, nor a scientist. Just an average guy with a bit of sadness about the choices being made by folks today. Both political and socialogical. To bad. Hard to see where it's all going to take us. It's also hard to imagine, seeing what's going on out there that we will be better off.

Hopefully, we will. We'll have to see I guess.

Liberty once lost, is lost forever.

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04-22-2009 07:00 PM  9 years agoPost 53
Dennis (RIP)

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Yo Mike. Nice response to Ron. I don't see him as an idiot at all.

You on the other hand..............

Liberty once lost, is lost forever.

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04-22-2009 07:07 PM  9 years agoPost 54
whirlyspud

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Sue me. Tell me Dennis, Did you read it as anything other than being my own opinion? And Ron, Sorry for possibly calling you an idiot. I just can't understand how you would think that any post on these forums is some fact written in stone. THey are all our opinions. And Dennis, I used to think you were ok, now I'm not so sure.

Mike

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04-22-2009 07:07 PM  9 years agoPost 55
RonHill

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whirlyspud
Ron, you are as bad as the bible thumpers that take one line and try to turn it in to something more than it is. If you can't tell that the post was my opinion, then you are an idiot.
So name calling is the best you can do...

Got it.

Still have not answered this question:

So, is a criminal 'wired' to be a criminal?

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04-22-2009 07:09 PM  9 years agoPost 56
whirlyspud

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Sorry about that Ron, It just seemed you were being obtuse just for the sake of being obtuse. Maybe I took it wrong. Tell me, do you really think I was saying it was a universal fact and something other than my own opinion? Come on. I did edit the part out before your post, but your quote is what I said first.

I'll answer your other question. I don't know if they are or are not any more likely to commit a crime than you do. I have read of studies that say they might be predisposed to it, but like most anything, those studies contain opinions, and not laws written in stone. It is what it is.

Mike

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04-22-2009 07:23 PM  9 years agoPost 57
RonHill

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whirlyspud
Sorry about that
Cool, accepted.
but tell me, do you really think I was saying it was a fact?
I think you think it is a fact. I think that since you hold it to be fact that you are unwilling to think it could be anything else.

Further, I think you have a hard time accepting anyone that does not agree with you that it is true and therefore minimize them and their opinion.

I don't know either way.... But I am willing to listen to anyone that has opinions either way.

But for those that think it is genetic... What else are you willing to accept as genetic? And if something like criminal tendencies are genetic... Do you think they can be rehabilitated or are they a lost cause?

For example.... Lets say that someone thinks that homosexuality is genetic. Then we would have to assume that there is nothing (biologically) wrong with it. No harm, no foul, who cares... (Religious people, see my post above about how God will punish them... I mean if you believe in God, then you should also take solace in the fact that they will burn in hell then.)

But, lets assume that if that is genetic. Then other things could ALSO be genetic, right?

For the sake of argument lets say that stealing is genetic. Then, how can we possibly punish someone for being who they were wired to be? Can they be rehabilitated, or is the only solution to imprison them for life or execute them?

So what is the limit on using genetics as an excuse for behavior?

Is being a criminal genetic in your opinion?

How about being a Democrat, or Republican?

Is being a child molester genetic?

Please answer those question if you would.

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04-22-2009 07:28 PM  9 years agoPost 58
whirlyspud

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You know what I think? I think we all just enjoy a good pissing match. My opinion is open. The one I currently hold is not at all what it was 20 years ago. But given what I have seen, it is the one I hold at this time. Only time will tell what it will be in another 20 years. The only "fact" is that it is my opinion. Nothing more, and nothing less.

Mike

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04-23-2009 01:18 AM  9 years agoPost 59
1stPlace

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I'm with Mike on this one. I went to school with a couple of guys who were exceptionally effeminate. Both of them dated girls in high school, and never openly admitted to being gay. Sadly, it was obvious. We all knew they were gay. Even though they hid their sexuality in school, one of them showed up with a boyfriend at our 10th reunion. At our 15th reunion, both of them were there with their boyfriends.

It is my opinion that either you are gay, or your not. It's not a conscious choice. I do know that both of these guys are happier now, being true to themselves, rather than hiding in shame. Take it or leave it. It's just an opinion... One that happens to be based on FACTS!

As for Perez Hilton, Carrie Prejean should kick that bitch's ass!

Diejenigen, die nicht lernen aus den Fehlern der Vergangenheit bestimmt sind, zu wiederholen.

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04-23-2009 01:24 AM  9 years agoPost 60
philip 01

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It's not a conscious choice.
it doesn't appear to be.

when you look at this woman with or without knowing she is gay you can see the masculine genetics. you can see it in many gays just by observing behavior. doesn't look like much of a secret in most.

i suspect something biological is happening. either way it seems they may all burn in hell according to some. what a shame to be born into going to hell from a birth defect.

http://runryder.net/t509306p1/

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HomeOff Topics News & Politics › Miss Califonia Loses After Giving 'Wrong Answer'
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