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HomeAircraftHelicopterThunder TigerRAPTOR 50 › losing engine power in maneouvres
04-06-2009 12:11 AM  9 years agoPost 1
meowsqueak

rrApprentice

New Zealand

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I've been flying my Titan for over a year now - it's flying pretty nicely and I've managed some loops and rolls as well as mastering a fair bit of "normal" flight.

My concern is that although I have a governor (MultiGov2) and a Futaba 9001 servo on my throttle, the engine still bogs down a LOT on things like rolls and loops. It eventually picks back up again but the last roll I did almost took it into the ground. It feels like the engine is lacking a bit of power.

I put a Kasama head on it recently and I wonder if the extra pitch range is overloading the engine because I'm going into the rolls too hard/fast?

So what I'd like to know is - what are the main things I should be looking at:

- needles?
- muffler?
- technique?

The engine is an OS50 (the ringed hyper) and the muffler is the stock TT Titan one. I'm running 10% nitro at sea level.

I've watched other helis of a similar size do rolls and although the engine tone changes a bit, it doesn't sound nearly as bad as mine does...

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04-06-2009 12:15 AM  9 years agoPost 2
philthewrench

rrApprentice

Westchester Co. NY

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I put a Kasama head on it recently and I wonder if the extra pitch range is overloading the engine because I'm doing into the rolls too hard
How much collective and cyclic are you using?

Phil

... and now my impression of a lawn dart .......

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04-06-2009 12:17 AM  9 years agoPost 3
meowsqueak

rrApprentice

New Zealand

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I can't check directly (I'm not at home) but it's less than 12* either way - might be 11ish from memory.

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04-06-2009 12:53 AM  9 years agoPost 4
DANBOONE

rrApprentice

Plymouth, IN 46563

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What head speed are you running (1900-2000)? The new smoothie pipe would probly help and also 30% Nitro. You still have to have colletive managment in your flying skills. At least thats what I find when I fly.

Dan Lowry

Thunder Tiger Rep

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04-06-2009 12:57 AM  9 years agoPost 5
RaptorMan23

rrKey Veteran

Sioux City, IA

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30%? How about 10% nitro with s3151 servos? I can 3D all day with no governer and keep the head up, its all in the collective management. 30% is just a bandaid, you just gotta learn how to fly it

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04-06-2009 01:14 AM  9 years agoPost 6
meowsqueak

rrApprentice

New Zealand

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Hmm, I think my issue is almost entirely collective management (or lack of it), but I'm not 100% sure that my engine is performing well either. I'd like to get the engine sorted out first because I was quite surprised when it almost dropped out of the sky just because I did a single roll...

My headspeed is 1850. I don't want to increase this just yet because I'd rather learn how to manage the collective properly during these sorts of aerobatics. Others at the field seem to have no problems at 1800-ish.

I'll be sticking with 10% nitro for now, but thanks for the suggestion.

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04-06-2009 02:03 AM  9 years agoPost 7
rcjon

rrVeteran

Macon, GA

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Are you running too rich?

How much cyclic pitch (aileron and elevator) are you running?

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04-06-2009 03:32 AM  9 years agoPost 8
jschenck

rrProfessor

La Vista, NE.

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+1 on rcjon's post - Tune your engine, sounds like it's rich. What collective and cyclic pitch value's are you running? What headspeed?

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04-06-2009 03:44 AM  9 years agoPost 9
DANBOONE

rrApprentice

Plymouth, IN 46563

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raptorman23 slower servos will keep you from bogging the engine also.

Thunder Tiger Rep

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04-06-2009 04:24 AM  9 years agoPost 10
RaptorMan23

rrKey Veteran

Sioux City, IA

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I agree dan, Basically what my point was is that you dont need 30% nitro to fly 3D manuevers. You can do about everything with a little collective management. I bet dragging the cyclic and collective out longer than necessary is where most of my headspeed is going. Since I dont have a governer, I had to adjust my midstick throttle curve until my head wouldnt speed up when falling out of manuevers with alot of negative. It works really well for controlling the overspeeding problem but where a gov benefits you is just making your headspeed constant, its basically putting a bandaid on collective/throttle management for you. Which is a good thing, you kinda need it when you get into 3D, thats why I want one

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04-06-2009 06:28 AM  9 years agoPost 11
meowsqueak

rrApprentice

New Zealand

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+1 on rcjon's post - Tune your engine, sounds like it's rich. What collective and cyclic pitch value's are you running? What headspeed?
A rich engine might explain things. However I don't really know how to tune an engine effectively (beyond the basic lean/rich needle) - does anyone have any links to a good online guide?

1850 headspeed.

Collective & cyclic pitch - can't remember exactly but it's about 11 degrees from memory.

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04-06-2009 12:16 PM  9 years agoPost 12
rcjon

rrVeteran

Macon, GA

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I use the finger on the backplate method. As soon as you shut down, pick the heli up and put your finger on the engine backplate. It should be hot, but if you can't keep your on it for about 5 seconds - it's too hot (lean).

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04-06-2009 12:26 PM  9 years agoPost 13
BarracudaHockey

rrMaster

Jacksonville FL

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http://www.raptortechnique.com has two articles on engine tuning including systematic guide to get the two needles pretty darn close.

Set the head speed below 500 on the multigov for all 3 modes while you're tuning then set it back when the engine is well tuned.

Andy
AMA 77227
http://www.jaxrc.com

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04-06-2009 05:04 PM  9 years agoPost 14
Swoop

rrElite Veteran

Newark, DE USA

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No one else did, so I though I would mention blades. Some blades rob headspeed more than others during aerobatics. the old mavrikk G4s come to mind...

Chris
X50, B320, Radix, Spartan
Titan,Kasama,MP5,Radix,JR770
Trex450SE,MavrikkG5,Phoenix35

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04-06-2009 06:04 PM  9 years agoPost 15
Zaneman007

rrElite Veteran

Texas - USA

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I could be collective management or the engine is... losing power.

My suggestion in order are:
1) Tighten the muffler while the engine is hot
2) Tune the engine
3) Replace the glow, and re-tune the engine
4) Have the guy with the best tuned engine, help tune your engine.
5) If all else fails(pull the engine).

I'm assuming that this is not a collective management skill issue, and that your not running some crazy plus or minus 15 degree pitch.

Old Guys Rule!

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04-06-2009 06:14 PM  9 years agoPost 16
jschenck

rrProfessor

La Vista, NE.

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I have also seen a 'slow recovering' engine from being too lean. Not enough fuel to step it back up.

and yes, I found that a pair of G4 620's can zap headspeed quick, but if the engine is not recovering when you let off the collective then it may be a tuning issue.

Keep us posted on what you find. I'd be curious to hear what comes of this.

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04-06-2009 06:17 PM  9 years agoPost 17
Big Edge

rrApprentice

Oldsmar, FL USA

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How does the engine sound at idle..? Can you hear a rattle sound?
May be time for a rebuild; Bearings and/or ring and sleeve.

-----------------------------
Don't taze me bro...

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04-06-2009 09:24 PM  9 years agoPost 18
meowsqueak

rrApprentice

New Zealand

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Thanks for all the responses. Lots of things to consider here.

1. blades - I'm using glass fibre GCT blades. Perhaps they aren't stiff enough and are bleeding energy.

2. rich/lean - I know the backplate technique, I usually check after every flight and I'm fairly happy that it's not too lean. Might be a tad too rich though. I'll review the raptortechnique articles.

3. is it worth upgrading from the stock TT muffler? Is this likely to be a factor or will I be complicating things at this time? What might I upgrade it to? 522?

4. engine sounds pretty normal at idle - it's done just over 100 flights. When would one typically look at rebuilding the engine, or is it just in response to something being wrong?

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04-06-2009 09:58 PM  9 years agoPost 19
jschenck

rrProfessor

La Vista, NE.

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- The stock muffler works fine, don't worry about that until you are flying 2000 RPM

- Try leaning the engine 1-2 clicks, check temp after 1-2 minutes of flying. Also listen to it, if it sounds raspy or crackly at all it's probably too lean. Do this a few times and you should see your power go up as you get the tune closer. Also check the engine by flicking into throttle hold. It should chop down to idle quickly. If it doesn't that's usually a sign of too lean also. Again the idea is to get to a good power mixture without going lean.

I wouldn't worry about rebuilding it with 100 flights unless the piston/ring show signs of problems. If the metal looks good and the compression feels good It's probably fine.

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04-07-2009 12:31 AM  9 years agoPost 20
philthewrench

rrApprentice

Westchester Co. NY

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

Collective & cyclic pitch - can't remember exactly but it's about 11 degrees from memory.
I think this should probably be looked at a bit closer. I've never flown a Kasama head, but I used to bog the heck out of mine when I started doing ham fisted rolls and loops. I would crank the sticks over in a panic trying to get though the maneuver before I crashed.

I once never set my endpoints in a rush to get my 30 flying. Had so much cyclic I could nearly stall the engine at will .

Phil

... and now my impression of a lawn dart .......

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HomeAircraftHelicopterThunder TigerRAPTOR 50 › losing engine power in maneouvres
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