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04-05-2009 06:42 PM  9 years agoPost 61
1stPlace

rrApprentice

Ohio USA

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What are you willing to sacrifice in order to stay safe and do the best you can to stop further terror attacks?
I am willing to keep my eyes open and report suspicious activity to appropriate law enforcement agencies, as everyone should be. I am willing to put up with a certain amount of cameras in public places. I am willing to pay reasonable and appropriate taxes to support those agencies and programs. I am not willing to sacrifice anything else.
Would you rather have NO Patriot Act and nothing like it and just respond when we are attacked? Or would you rather do the best you can to prevent further attacks and save innocent lifes?
Loaded question. This is not a this-or-that situation. Warrantless searches and arrests, gag orders on citizens, gag orders on judges, banks and financial institutions are unconstitutional and unnecessary for law enforcement to do their jobs. Before 9/11, they were too complacent (we all were). They just need to work smarter and harder. They don't have to shred our rights to be able to do a good job. Yet, for some reason, you think that they do?

Diejenigen, die nicht lernen aus den Fehlern der Vergangenheit bestimmt sind, zu wiederholen.

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04-05-2009 08:00 PM  9 years agoPost 62
Dragon2115

rrKey Veteran

New England

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No, it clearly demonstrates that the added security detailed in the the PA did nothing to improve security. This was AFTER the TSA took over airline security. The only thing the new regs accomplished was inconveniencing passengers and treating them like criminals before allowing them to board an airliner (and doing a piss poor job of it).
No it does not. Your example proves nothing more than that a screener wasn't doing their job. I'm sorry if you can't understand that but that's all there is to it. if the screener had been doing their job as specified within the law that authorizes pre-boarding searches then you wouldn't have gotten on the plane with the knife.

I've had this happen to me and it wasn't really their fault. I had put a small dive knife in a camera bag months before I went to use the bag on a trip. I had forgotten where I had put the knife and had looked for it several times. I went right threw the x-ray machine in Boston without it being detected. When I got to Aruba and was changing to another airline the screener saw it on the x-ray. It took two screeners, five passes through the x-ray machine and several minutes of searching the bag to find it. The guy knew it was there and he STILL couldn't find it in the bag. Apparently it was in there in such a way that if the bag went through the machine facing a certain way you couldn't see it and it was tucked in so far you couldn't easily find it when going threw the bag. I explained how it got there and all they did was ask me what I wanted to do with it. Since my other luggage had already been checked I told them to throw it in the bin with all the other stuff they confiscate.

A lot of how you are treated also depends on how you act. Don't get me wrong there are screeners that are nothing but flat out jerks with a superiority complex. All you can do with them is smile and get through it. Most are ok though and if you treat them politely and professionally they'll treat you ok in return. But I've seen passengers that are just as off the hook as the sreeners you complain about that fly off the handle if you dare to inconvenience them for even one second. Some of these people are so badly behaved they deserve whatever they get. And there's a lot more of them than there are screeners. Imagine having to put up with some of the a-hole passengers that come through every single day. It's no picnic for them either.

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04-05-2009 08:04 PM  9 years agoPost 63
Dennis (RIP)

rrApprentice

Oregon

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Banks and financial institutions are unconstitutional and unnecessary for law enforcement to do their jobs.
Oh really. What about the tracing of funding for terrorists? Don't you think that would be something to keep an eye on in order to track these killers and stop them before they can kill thousands like they did on 9/11?
Before 9/11, they were too complacent (we all were). They just need to work smarter and harder.
And they should be given more & better tools to fight the war on terror. Like the Patriot Act. Don't forget, both Dem & Repub Congresses have affirmed it. That makes it legal. Wether you like it or not. If you want to change that, you can't do it here.
They don't have to shred our rights to be able to do a good job. Yet, for some reason, you think that they do?
Shred our rights? Where did I say that? Show me.
I am willing to keep my eyes open and report suspicious activity to appropriate law enforcement agencies, as everyone should be.
Yeah right. You are the expert terror hunter. That smacks of everyone should be the same. Thats just plain silly. Here is a hint: We can't. We are not law enforcement, or military. We are just citizens in a Republic voting for others to protect us. The ones that protect us need all the tools we can give them to do their jobs. So far, since 9/11, they have done so.
I am willing to put up with a certain amount of cameras in public places.
Right, so that we can see the terrorists that kill us. Seems a bit "After The Fact" don't you think? I am not saying thats a bad thing to do. But, I just don't see that that will stop a bunch that are determined to kill you. There are easy ways to get around those cameras.
I am willing to pay reasonable and appropriate taxes to support those agencies and programs.
With whats going on now in government, you will be paying for more taxes. You can bet on it. But, it won't be to protect you. It will be to take your hard earned money and support those that did not earn it.

Don't get all worked up now. This is just a conversation with differing opinions.

Liberty once lost, is lost forever.

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04-05-2009 09:14 PM  9 years agoPost 64
Dragon2115

rrKey Veteran

New England

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The ones that protect us need all the tools we can give them to do their jobs. So far, since 9/11, they have done so.
Not necessarily. One of the points I was trying to make was that just like lots of other pieces of legislation it was thrown together in the heat of things and under intense public pressure. So they did what they usually do, they took all the stuff law enforcement had been whining for, like warrantless wire taps, and they threw everything into one big fustercluck of a bill. They did the same thing with TARP and all the stimulous bills. They had no idea of what a stimulous bill is so they threw together every spending bill that had been sitting on the shelf and couldn't get passed on its own and cobbled it together into yet another fustercluck that will not accomplish what it was supposed to. The problem is that what they've thrown into either of these never should have gotten past Congress, ever.

Warrantless wire taps for example, the FBI had been after them for years but Congress had kept shooting it down. Not that they hadn't already been doing it but now they'd stand up in court. Not good. The same has happened with the stimulous bills. Someone please explain how throwing $150 billion beyond what they normally get at education is going to stimulate the ecomony within six months. The fact is it won't and anybody with half a brain knows it.

My whole point to this is never underestimate the level of stupidity in our elected officials. What some attribute to preplanned conspiracy is nothing more than blatant incompetance which puts into effect laws that either squander money or that are abused by others.

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04-05-2009 09:23 PM  9 years agoPost 65
1stPlace

rrApprentice

Ohio USA

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Oh really. What about the tracing of funding for terrorists? Don't you think that would be something to keep an eye on in order to track these killers and stop them before they can kill thousands like they did on 9/11?
Yeah, the BANKS should keep an eye on it, and alert the government of suspicious activity... Which do you think would be more effective at cutting off funding of terrorists: Opening our own oil wells and refusing to buy middle eastern oil? Or, trying to spot the money in a sea of billions of daily transactions?
And they should be given more & better tools to fight the war on terror. Like the Patriot Act.
Tools, yes. Freedom to write there own warrants, just ignoring the 4th amendment? Absolutely, positively NOT!
Don't forget, both Dem & Repub Congresses have affirmed it. That makes it legal.
So, it's ok two branches of government to take over the third? Just because they say so??? Wow... just wow.
Wether you like it or not. If you want to change that, you can't do it here.
Sure I can. I showed you where the Patriot act has been abused, and you acknowledged it. That's a step in the right direction Dennis.
Shred our rights? Where did I say that? Show me.
You never did. Because to you, giving up rights, is just an "inconvenience".
Speaking for myself, I would not call them lost freedoms. But rather just added inconveniences.
Yeah right. You are the expert terror hunter.
Never claimed to be a terrorist hunter.
That smacks of everyone should be the same. Thats just plain silly.
So, vigilance is silly? People shouldn't cooperate with law enforcement? Are you serious???
Here is a hint: We can't. We are not law enforcement, or military.
We can't pick up a phone and call the police, or the fbi, or 911, or imigration when we witness potential crimes being committed??? Are you serious?
We are just citizens in a Republic voting for others to protect us.
Here's a hint, they can't! We don't vote for who becomes a cop, an fbi agent, ect... Our representatives don't either.
The ones that protect us need all the tools we can give them to do their jobs. So far, since 9/11, they have done so.
Show me one clear case of where the PA stopped a terrorist attack, or even capture a terrorist. Especially considering that muslim terrorist training camps have sprung up inside our country.
Right, so that we can see the terrorists that kill us. Seems a bit "After The Fact" don't you think? I am not saying thats a bad thing to do. But, I just don't see that that will stop a bunch that are determined to kill you. There are easy ways to get around those cameras.
To the contrary, I believe it is a preventative measure, and a great way to see what's happening at the moment, and if it's recording, a perfect way to review whatever the situation was.
With whats going on now in government, you will be paying for more taxes. You can bet on it. But, it won't be to protect you. It will be to take your hard earned money and support those that did not earn it.
Great, you want to give up MY rights, literally, the Bill of Rights? And, they want to give away MY money.

Diejenigen, die nicht lernen aus den Fehlern der Vergangenheit bestimmt sind, zu wiederholen.

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04-05-2009 09:40 PM  9 years agoPost 66
Aaron29

rrProfessor

USA

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With whats going on now in government, you will be paying for more taxes. You can bet on it. But, it won't be to protect you. It will be to take your hard earned money and support those that did not earn it.
This will only last so long.

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04-05-2009 10:14 PM  9 years agoPost 67
Dennis (RIP)

rrApprentice

Oregon

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Wether you like it or not. If you want to change that, you can't do it here.

Sure I can. I showed you where the Patriot act has been abused, and you acknowledged it. That's a step in the right direction Dennis
True. But, that will not get rid of the Patriot Act
Yeah, the BANKS should keep an eye on it, and alert the government of suspicious activity...
As far as I know, thats written right into the Patriot Act. Otherwise, they would not be able to do it legally.
Tools, yes. Freedom to write there own warrants, just ignoring the 4th amendment? Absolutely, positively NOT!
They are not going after the neighbor lady or the neighbor dog you know. Seems like an overreaction to me.
So, it's ok two branches of government to take over the third? Just because they say so??? Wow... just wow.
Not sure what that means. If the Patriot Act is presented by the President and is affirmed by both a Repub AND Democrat Congress, that makes it legal. If you want to change it, then write your congressman. Thats about all you can do.
You never did. Because to you, giving up rights, is just an "inconvenience".
That not a correct statement. What I said was "I don't believe the Patriot Act has taken anyone's rights away from them. Just made a few things more inconvenient". Thats a far stretch from giving up rights is just an inconvenience.
So, vigilance is silly? People shouldn't cooperate with law enforcement? Are you serious???
Never said that either. What I said was, "We are not law enforcement or the military. We can't be. We are just citizens of a Republic who vote for others to protect us". Of course we should cooperate with law enforcement whenever we can. Thats part of being a citizen. But we, as citizens cannot stop terrorism.
Show me one clear case of where the PA stopped a terrorist attack, or even capture a terrorist. Especially considering that muslim terrorist training camps have sprung up inside our country.
I can't. But, Bush did say that using the tools at hand, they did stop 70 or 8 terrorist attacks inside the USS since 9/11. They will not discuss how. But, they did say that using interrogation techniques on enemy combatants was just one tool they used. Lets please not get onto the torture crapola.

I don't believe Bush was lying about that. Most Democrats do. Thats the way it is.
Great, you want to give up MY rights, literally, the Bill of Rights? And, they want to give away MY money.
Show me where I said I want to give up your rights or anyone elses. Hard to figure that one.
To the contrary, I believe it is a preventative measure, and a great way to see what's happening at the moment, and if it's recording, a perfect way to review whatever the situation was.
OK, I'll give you that one. But, nothing else

Liberty once lost, is lost forever.

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04-06-2009 01:30 AM  9 years agoPost 68
Aaron29

rrProfessor

USA

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What are you willing to sacrifice in order to stay safe and do the best you can to stop further terror attacks?
None of my Bill of Rights, that's for sure. Otherwise they've won without a second shot fired.

We need to stand brave as a nation and inform our ELECTED government that we can accept the risk in order to maintain our liberties.

Use your power while you have it. Vote.

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04-06-2009 01:59 PM  9 years agoPost 69
1stPlace

rrApprentice

Ohio USA

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No it does not. Your example proves nothing more than that a screener wasn't doing their job. I'm sorry if you can't understand that but that's all there is to it.
Actually, it was a total of five screeners who failed to do their do their jobs. I'm sorry that you can't understand it. But, the PA did not improve airline security.
True. But, that will not get rid of the Patriot Act
Yet
As far as I know, thats written right into the Patriot Act. Otherwise, they would not be able to do it legally.
Not quite. Homeland security is watching the transactions and ordering the banks to keep their mouths shut.
They are not going after the neighbor lady or the neighbor dog you know. Seems like an overreaction to me.
True, but they have the power to go after the neighbor lady. They now have the right to create a warrant, kidnap her and detain her without due process.
Not sure what that means.
It means that the executive branch (president) and the legislative branch (congress) have removed powers from the judicial branch, in order to get what they want.
If the Patriot Act is presented by the President and is affirmed by both a Repub AND Democrat Congress, that makes it legal
No, it doesn't. It is unconstitutional, and therefor an illegal act by the president and congress.
If you want to change it, then write your congressman. Thats about all you can do.
That won't help. 99% of our representatives don't understand the constitution, and sign bills into law without reading them. The current congress must be run out of DC by vote of the people, and replaced with representatives who will not act like such fools.
Show me one clear case of where the PA stopped a terrorist attack, or even capture a terrorist.
I can't. But, Bush did say that using the tools at hand, they did stop 70 or 8 terrorist attacks inside the USS since 9/11.
Exactly, You can't because it's nothing more than propaganda. Show me some proof, and I'll concede.

Diejenigen, die nicht lernen aus den Fehlern der Vergangenheit bestimmt sind, zu wiederholen.

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04-06-2009 02:50 PM  9 years agoPost 70
ch-47c

rrElite Veteran

san jose, ca

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Airport security.

It's gone too far.

These days, if a drive is less than 10-12 hours, I REFUSE to fly. I'd rather deal with the traffic.

I had one official berate me with a condescending tone for having too big a toothpaste in my carry on. I haven't been spoken to like that since I was 14. Another had me remove my sweater, shoes, and belt. Seriously is this necessary? Don't forget the full bag searches.

There's a YOUTUBE video of a girl being thrown at a chair, dangerously. She never lifted a finger at her assailant TSA officer. I really don't care what she may have said. The TSA officer was not suspended or reprimanded, but praised by supervision. If this isn't abuse of power what is?

There has to be other people who feel the same. If the airlines care about their business they'll push for at least politeness and a smile when being dealt with. They don't have 1st hand dealing with TSA but they can recommend things. The government doesn't want all of us to give up flying. It'd be bad for business. It's in their best interest to provide security with reason and respect.

Airline travel isn't mandatory. If you got treated like this before going out to eat you'd probably start eating in. I've made the same decision with respect to airlines.

Once it's fixed they've got me as a customer again. Until then I'll only fly when I can't walk or swim
I deal with TSA at least 18 days a month. I've never seen any abuse by TSA. I do see alot of people that don't like having to comply with methods they use since 9/11, but most just deal with it. Like you said, if you don't like it don't fly. I've seen a lot of people doing stupid things or act uncooperative and disrespectful. It just delays everyone. I was in NYC 9/11 and what the govt has done since is fine with me. For about 2 months after 9/11, people were so nice to each other it was almost sickening since everyone was scared of the same thing happening to them. Now that everyone feels nothing will happen again or to them, the old ways are back.
People don't like to be told what to do. But when airline personel tell you to do something for FAA regulation compliance, they don't tell you to be bossy. It is in compliance with what the FAA has deem safe and the airline is required to do so if they want to keep their operating certificate and stay in business. You have no idea what security breaches are attempted each day. No you don't.
For you nay sayers prove where it hasn't helped. If you don't like it Go Greyhound. Or swim?

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04-06-2009 04:11 PM  9 years agoPost 71
1stPlace

rrApprentice

Ohio USA

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For you nay sayers prove where it hasn't helped. If you don't like it Go Greyhound. Or swim?
You can't prove a negative. The burden of proof lies on you who think the PA has helped. I don't have to swim or take the bus. I'll just fly my Cherokee.

Diejenigen, die nicht lernen aus den Fehlern der Vergangenheit bestimmt sind, zu wiederholen.

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04-06-2009 04:32 PM  9 years agoPost 72
ch-47c

rrElite Veteran

san jose, ca

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Quote
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

For you nay sayers prove where it hasn't helped. If you don't like it Go Greyhound. Or swim?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You can't prove a negative. The burden of proof lies on you who think the PA has helped. I don't have to swim or take the bus. I'll just fly my Cherokee.
For you nay sayers prove where it has failed. You said in your original post "can't swim", not "don't have to swim".

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04-06-2009 05:53 PM  9 years agoPost 73
1stPlace

rrApprentice

Ohio USA

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For you nay sayers prove where it has failed.
That's just stupid. You can't prove a negative. Show me where it was successful.

I did prove where it is unconstitutional and that it has been abused.
You said in your original post "can't swim", not "don't have to swim".
Wasn't me.

Diejenigen, die nicht lernen aus den Fehlern der Vergangenheit bestimmt sind, zu wiederholen.

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04-06-2009 05:57 PM  9 years agoPost 74
Dennis (RIP)

rrApprentice

Oregon

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That's just stupid. You can't prove a negative. Show me where it was successful
We have not been attacked since 9/11. How much more proof do you need?

Thats due to the diligent work of the powers that be and the tools they were given. One of them, the Patriot Act. Its not perfect. But, I think it did help.

Liberty once lost, is lost forever.

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04-06-2009 06:18 PM  9 years agoPost 75
JohnLund

rrNovice

Corpus Christi, TX

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We have not been attacked since 9/11. How much more proof do you need?

Thats due to the diligent work of the powers that be and the tools they were given. One of them, the Patriot Act. Its not perfect. But, I think it did help.
Or, they haven't mounted an attack of that scale since then. The simple fact that a law, or act, or authority exist, and even is enforced doesn't mean anything, as proven by over crowded prisons. Quite the contrary since our borders are open, our ports aren't secure, we are still vulnerable to attack. It would be so easy to commit a terrorist act that would rock our nation, and the Patriot Act wouldn't be able to do anything to stop it, honestly, it amazes me that none have taken place.

Ron's Heliproz South

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04-06-2009 08:27 PM  9 years agoPost 76
1stPlace

rrApprentice

Ohio USA

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honestly, it amazes me that none have taken place.
+1

Diejenigen, die nicht lernen aus den Fehlern der Vergangenheit bestimmt sind, zu wiederholen.

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04-06-2009 08:41 PM  9 years agoPost 77
Dennis (RIP)

rrApprentice

Oregon

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Quite the contrary since our borders are open, our ports aren't secure, we are still vulnerable to attack. It would be so easy to commit a terrorist act that would rock our nation, and the Patriot Act wouldn't be able to do anything to stop it, honestly, it amazes me that none have taken place.
Agreed. The Patriot Act is not perfect. But, it helps.

Liberty once lost, is lost forever.

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04-06-2009 08:56 PM  9 years agoPost 78
JohnLund

rrNovice

Corpus Christi, TX

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The Patriot Act is not perfect. But, it helps.
If that's what you need to tell yourself so you can sleep at night, than whatever. Personsally I think that the expansion of the government, and heading us down the direction our politicians did, is another victory for the terrorist, and people that want to see our way of life destroyed.

Ron's Heliproz South

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04-06-2009 09:00 PM  9 years agoPost 79
Dennis (RIP)

rrApprentice

Oregon

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Personsally I think that the expansion of the government, and heading us down the direction our politicians did, is another victory for the terrorist, and people that want to see our way of life destroyed.
I certainly would not call myself in favor of expansion of government.

In fact, I am quite the opposite.

But, still in the hopes they can protect us. Without that, we have nothing.

Frankly, I am concerned. Very much so.

Liberty once lost, is lost forever.

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04-06-2009 09:34 PM  9 years agoPost 80
ch-47c

rrElite Veteran

san jose, ca

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If that's what you need to tell yourself so you can sleep at night,
It's my guns.

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