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HomeAircraftHelicopterHelicopter Main Discussion › A stupid question
04-02-2009 04:40 AM  9 years agoPost 21
GyroFreak

rrProfessor

Orlando Florida ...28N 81W

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Cost. You have to add two gyros (three if you include tail control) and the mixing for the servos. It also may interfere with extrem 3D flying by causing some interactions undesired during stunting.

I think about the hereafter. I go somewhere to get something, then wonder what I'm here after ?

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04-02-2009 04:41 AM  9 years agoPost 22
cudaboy_71

rrElite Veteran

sacramento, ca, u.s.

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On a side note, Why aren't we seeing more kits produced with no fly bar? This seems to be the future of RC heli?
right now the market is price driven for the entry level. a vbar setup adds an expense that is really not required for the first couple of years of flight. that, and it really is a bleeding-edge technology. you really don't want to see all the menus required for basic setup of a vbar. i've heard the skookum is easier to set up. but, it's all still magic best left for someone else to perfect for most people. All IMHO, of course.
It also may interfere with extrem 3D flying by causing some interactions undesired during stunting.
actually, that's the benefit of the vbar. you can program in or out anything you like. phasing issues that might never be addressed on a flybar are just a click or two away in a setting with software.

if it ain't broke, break it.

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04-02-2009 05:05 AM  9 years agoPost 23
Cope

rrVeteran

South Lake Tahoe CA

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I'm a big fan of software, someones tag line some where is "Software eventually works, Hardware eventually FAILS"

I love that.

Like I said, I wish I was a programmer! How hard can it be?

Cuda I'm sending you a PM.

Thanks for all the help, time and advice

Fear is the little death,The mind killer. I will allow my fear to pass through me.Only I will remain

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04-02-2009 05:18 AM  9 years agoPost 24
dkshema

rrMaster

Cedar Rapids, IA

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Don't tell Hubert Bitner that you can't go flybarless without using super duper servos and stuff. His 60 powered Horizon was going flybarless more than 20 years ago. Turn the clock back, take a look at the technology available then. It was done, it was done successfully.

-----

Flybarless Kavan Jet Ranger, 1976, from Helidad2's Gallery:

Seems it was done at least 33 years ago.

-----
Dave

* Making the World Better -- One Helicopter at a time! *

Team Heliproz

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04-02-2009 05:28 AM  9 years agoPost 25
Cope

rrVeteran

South Lake Tahoe CA

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How was this achieved with that technology.

Any picks of that naked?

Fear is the little death,The mind killer. I will allow my fear to pass through me.Only I will remain

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04-02-2009 06:14 AM  9 years agoPost 26
alvinrc

rrKey Veteran

Mobile, AL, USA

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I had a go at flybarless back in the day with a 60 size Revolution Rigid Head (gold anodized limited edition) and one of the Horizons. No gyro used.

A bit twitchie around neutral on cyclics, but was not something you could not get used to. Looped, rolled, and the regular flying around stuff OK.

We did build in a fair amount of lead in blade tips and the blades would be aligned nice and straight across head center line and locked down.

Biggest problem I and others had was the absolute flight characteristic of standing on it's tail and backing up when coming through bottom of loop and exiting stall turn, anything that gave some increase in airspeed, up came the nose. You had to be ready to get on that forward cyclic at any time.

Some guys did add a rate gyro to pitch cyclic servo to sort of manage it better, really just slowed up the bad tendency some so you had more time to add correction.

About best flybarless design was on the GMP Legend as far as I know. Never had one, but watched others put them through their paces. People seemed to have better luck with it than the older designs.

Biggest concern I would have with regular hard usage is the aerodynamic feedback from main blades to cyclic servos due to direct hard linkage with pushrod.

Be interesting to see how the non V-bar flybarless would hold up to modern high stress maneuvers and with new super servos.
Should be just fine for scale application.

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04-02-2009 06:42 AM  9 years agoPost 27
Cope

rrVeteran

South Lake Tahoe CA

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Some guys did add a rate gyro to pitch cyclic servo to sort of manage it better

How did they add gyros in the "Old days" to servos?

Fear is the little death,The mind killer. I will allow my fear to pass through me.Only I will remain

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04-02-2009 07:43 AM  9 years agoPost 28
alvinrc

rrKey Veteran

Mobile, AL, USA

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Real Old Days - No gyros to worry with yet.
Things so much simpler then.

Olden Days - Very first Kavan gyro I had, you soldered the wires from gyro directly into servo case to the pot.

Old Days - Rudder pigtail from receiver rudder channel went to gyro, rudder servo plugged into gyro. Some had a gain box where you could have two gains set up selectable from transmitter or in some the gain would be adjustable between values set with two pots in gain box, rotary knob or slider channel would adjust gain to any value you wanted.
Some just had one gain adjust available and you found a happy compromise between holding power and max piro rate needed.

Some had a so called Pilot Authority circuit built in that was supposed to reduce gain as rudder stick was moved over. Tail held better around rudder neutral and could still really wizz when you moved the stick over. Seems like the GMP gyro was of that nature.

All this best I remember, ancient history now.

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04-02-2009 08:37 AM  9 years agoPost 29
GyroFreak

rrProfessor

Orlando Florida ...28N 81W

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Old model gyros were heavy motor driven brass wheels like this one !

I think about the hereafter. I go somewhere to get something, then wonder what I'm here after ?

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04-02-2009 10:23 AM  9 years agoPost 30
tskg2

rrApprentice

Wellington, New Zealand

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Doing it now, actually
Guys- a small bit of news from New Zealand, for this discussion.

I was loaned a digital flybar device, and have fitted it to a Caliber 30 heli, with a sweet electric conversion. I removed the flybar and modified the head. Plus the machine has simpole analog servos, too. And after several not too successful tries- I got some good advice to try to fly the heli without the flybar- or the device hooked up- to prove that the heli was setup mechanically right. I also added some trainers!

I've now had over 16 flights with the beast, and have the thing doing some reasonable hovering and occasional small, level circuits. Not rock solid- but if I were to work on it- I think even old G2 could get used to how it handles.

My mentor in Auckland has now said that the next step is to get the device hooked back into the system, and see how it goes. Hopefully this weekend!

My desire is to put this into one of my many scale electric helis. And then do the same with a couple more. No wild 3D flying for me- I ain't skilled like New Zealands Johnny P- but I think this device will help me achive a sweet scale look for my helis.

So- you can certainly fly a heli without a flybar and FBL device. I certainly ain't Curtis- but even I can do it, with some great advice and help from my mates. Big thanks to the guys here in Wgtn, Johhny P, Alan in Auck- and the great supplier of the device!

In case this helps- thanks- G2

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04-02-2009 03:10 PM  9 years agoPost 31
Foster

rrApprentice

Saline MI

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there was a post from a guy in the UK who removed the flybar from his Trex500 without a vbar unit... He flew it but it sure looked horrible and it was everything he could do just to keep it in the air.

I've seen a flybarless Tre450 that was streched to swing 350mm blades and even with a vbar unit the owner had a heck of a time keeping it in the air. He put the flybar back on and now wonders why he ever bothered with making that small of a heli flybarless.

To each his own but I wouldn't bother unless you use a stabilization unit meant for flybarless... there is a reason they exist.

Foster

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04-02-2009 04:17 PM  9 years agoPost 32
Wingman77

rrProfessor

Pulaski Tennessee

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I flew inkspot's flybarless rave, it had a V-bar and flew prety well but had some bad tendencys. now that I have my own rave with a flybar I see that going flybarless realy does not help at least on small helis.

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04-02-2009 04:37 PM  9 years agoPost 33
snjbird

rrKey Veteran

Kissimmee, Florida- USA

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For 3D, FBL is a little like cheating, isn't it? That why they don't have them in competitions?

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04-02-2009 04:58 PM  9 years agoPost 34
artimus

rrKey Veteran

Buckley WA

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For 3D, FBL is a little like cheating, isn't it? That why they don't have them in competitions?
What?Cheating? How is it cheating? Should they take off the tail gyro too then.....isnt that cheating too?

Fly Hard......Team Viagra

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04-02-2009 05:48 PM  9 years agoPost 35
JasonJ

rrKey Veteran

North Idaho

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You could always get that $199 Gaui virtual flybar deal. It's cheap and sounds like it works pretty good.

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04-02-2009 05:58 PM  9 years agoPost 36
SuperSixTwo

rrVeteran

Virginia City, NV ---USA

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F3c rules prohibit more than one gyro.

If you use gyros on the cyclic, make sure you dont use heading hold gyro. Makes the heli move where you dont want it to!

If you run FBL, without gyros, put in a bunch of expo, and be prepared to give it a bunch of forward cyclic to get thru the transitional lift. Else the nose will bounce up and you'll be flying a hot air ballon.

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04-02-2009 07:58 PM  9 years agoPost 37
broggyr

rrKey Veteran

Naugy, CT

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I tried going flybarless with my King II (even though I had no business doing so ) - I had bent the flybar and instead of waiting for new parts, I removed it completely. It was different, had to dial in loads of expo to the cyclics but still needed a lot of collective.

I've heard folks describe hovering to a non-pilot by saying it is like balancing a marble on a mirror. Take that one step further; if you can master hovering with a flybar, then taking the flybar off (without a vbar system) will seem like trying to balance a marble on a mirror!

...at least that is what it seemed like to me.

The heli definitely wanted to respond so much faster as compated to using the flybar. It was so awesome - just to be able to say I hovered it (for about 30 seconds). Then I hit the dirt.

Needless to say, I am back to the flybar (for now)

- Brian
irony [ay-ruh-nee', ay-er-nee'] adj.: Like goldy or bronzy, but made of iron

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04-02-2009 08:44 PM  9 years agoPost 38
chris6414

rrApprentice

Sneads Ferry, NC USA

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FP-G153BB
Still using one of the old Futabas on my Hawk and loving it.

Century Hawk Sport, OS .32, Futaba 7C, GY-601 9251
Predator Gasser SE G-23, Fut 3010 servos, JR gyro/servo

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04-02-2009 08:53 PM  9 years agoPost 39
snjbird

rrKey Veteran

Kissimmee, Florida- USA

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It is cheating because the electronic are managing the head, not the pilot? It was really more of a question. I don't see any of the Pros flying them in competitions? But then I don't go to many competitions either!

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04-02-2009 09:19 PM  9 years agoPost 40
Foster

rrApprentice

Saline MI

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if it were cheating then so is a flybar.

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HomeAircraftHelicopterHelicopter Main Discussion › A stupid question
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