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HomeAircraftHelicopterHelicopter Main Discussion › A stupid question
04-02-2009 03:28 AM  9 years agoPost 1
Cope

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South Lake Tahoe CA

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I been looking at the flybarless EVO thread in the hirobo area and it got me to wondering, What would happen if I remove the fly bar and run with no V-bar. (Note this is not for my evo, but for the little POS HDX 300)

I'm guessing some fast servos would be needed. Just what is the V-bar doing that servos and gryos cant control?

Is it just the the fact that it's adjustable?

What am I missing?

Thanks again.

Fear is the little death,The mind killer. I will allow my fear to pass through me.Only I will remain

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04-02-2009 03:29 AM  9 years agoPost 2
RaptorMan23

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Sioux City, IA

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theres a video somewhere on youtube about how to go flybarless with no v-bar, but I know nothing about it

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04-02-2009 03:31 AM  9 years agoPost 3
rotormonkey

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Ottawa, ON - Canada

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The vbar IS a gyro. Three gyros actually. It controls the cyclic and tail for you.

There are guys that run fbl without electronic stabalization, but I believe they use weighted blades to help. I'm pretty sure no matter what you do with a 300 though, it'll just explode if you try without e-stabilization. Not enough weight in the blades to keep it stable.

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04-02-2009 03:34 AM  9 years agoPost 4
GyroFreak

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Orlando Florida ...28N 81W

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Not a stupid question ! As I understand it is very difficult to fly, unstable and twitchy. That's where the fly bar comes in, it is a mechanical stabilizer by it's self gyroscopic action.

I think about the hereafter. I go somewhere to get something, then wonder what I'm here after ?

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04-02-2009 03:36 AM  9 years agoPost 5
Cope

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South Lake Tahoe CA

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Why would it explode? Servo torque not enough to stop the blades from over pitching?

Just what do weighted blades do? Can I add weight to the blades?

This heli is a POS any way, I just was thinking of the benefit of reducing rotating weight (If you are familiar with the HDX you know why )and adding pop.

Thanks

Fear is the little death,The mind killer. I will allow my fear to pass through me.Only I will remain

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04-02-2009 03:38 AM  9 years agoPost 6
Cope

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South Lake Tahoe CA

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Unstable and twitchy don't bother me one bit. I just want to get the rotating weight down.

Thanks again.

Fear is the little death,The mind killer. I will allow my fear to pass through me.Only I will remain

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04-02-2009 03:44 AM  9 years agoPost 7
TaleGunner

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Deer Park WA

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Unstable and twitchy don't bother me one bit.
Please have a video cam with you Might get 10k from AFV

CRASH! GLUE! REPEAT!
Spectra-G, Ion X-2

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04-02-2009 03:45 AM  9 years agoPost 8
Cope

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South Lake Tahoe CA

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More thoughts, Gyros are cheep for a 300 size ship, I could buy two more. I dont see how the V-bar is three gyros, One for tail, one for cyclic? No?

Could I not just mount a gyro on the horizontal plane and "Y" it into the cyclic servo?

Thanks for looking.

EDIT + if I could remove the fly bar I could lower the main rotor thus reducing forces on the main shaft.

Fear is the little death,The mind killer. I will allow my fear to pass through me.Only I will remain

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04-02-2009 03:47 AM  9 years agoPost 9
GyroFreak

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Orlando Florida ...28N 81W

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Sounds like you want someone to say 'OK, try it.' So I say OK, try it, but no warranties from me. And tailgunner suggestion is great, video it and post back your results.

I think about the hereafter. I go somewhere to get something, then wonder what I'm here after ?

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04-02-2009 03:48 AM  9 years agoPost 10
GyroFreak

rrProfessor

Orlando Florida ...28N 81W

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Not if your helicopter uses CCPM. Which all small ones I have seen use.

I think about the hereafter. I go somewhere to get something, then wonder what I'm here after ?

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04-02-2009 03:51 AM  9 years agoPost 11
Cope

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South Lake Tahoe CA

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What I want is some one to explain why it wont work.

Or to say they tried it and it sucks..

Or what the V-bar dose.

The heli is the HDX 300

Could I not just mount a gyro on the horizontal plane and "Y" it into the cyclic servo?

Double edit the gyro I use on the 300 mounts vertical

Fear is the little death,The mind killer. I will allow my fear to pass through me.Only I will remain

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04-02-2009 03:55 AM  9 years agoPost 12
GyroFreak

rrProfessor

Orlando Florida ...28N 81W

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Does the HDX300 have CCPM setup ? If so just adding gyro's won't work. I will explain if you tell me it has CCPM.

I think about the hereafter. I go somewhere to get something, then wonder what I'm here after ?

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04-02-2009 03:59 AM  9 years agoPost 13
Cope

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South Lake Tahoe CA

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Arrrg. (looking the other way, speaking quietly)

I'm pretty sure it does..

Fear is the little death,The mind killer. I will allow my fear to pass through me.Only I will remain

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04-02-2009 04:03 AM  9 years agoPost 14
artimus

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Buckley WA

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Your gonna want stabilization of some sort weather its with a gyro or flybar.....all the years of development have brought us here. You can do it with out just like you can fly with out a tail gyro....you will enjoy it more if you do......

Fly Hard......Team Viagra

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04-02-2009 04:07 AM  9 years agoPost 15
GyroFreak

rrProfessor

Orlando Florida ...28N 81W

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I looked it up and the HDX300 does. Note the swash plate, the 3 servos links are spaced 120 deg around the outside. These three servos have to work in a co-operative manner. When you add collective, all three have to must move the same. If you add a gyro to one then it will interact with the collective and force the heli into uncontrollabe action. Vbar and others use a built in micro to mix the servos in the correct amount. Any action you give to the collective or cyclic has to be mixed correctly for the servos to move in the correct amount.

I think about the hereafter. I go somewhere to get something, then wonder what I'm here after ?

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04-02-2009 04:12 AM  9 years agoPost 16
cudaboy_71

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sacramento, ca, u.s.

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the flybar is a mechanical gyro for the head.

if you try to fly your MODEL heli without a flybar, the reaction time required to manage any reasonable semblance of what we'd call a stable hover or forward flight it is beyond what a human can reasonably control. (adding more blades reduces this effect, and is why you see multi-bladed MODEL helis without flybars or 'vbars'.

this only holds true for MODELS...because physics doesnt scale. what you would have completely under control on a full scale aircraft requires super-human reaction times on a model.

so, what is a vbar? it is a virtual flybar (that's what the v stands for). it replaces the mechanical gyroscopic stability of an actual flybar with an electronic version.

the vbar (or any other flybarless system) uses a two-axis gyroscope to add stability in both fore-aft movement and side-to-side movement. one added feature of the vbar specifically is that it has a third gyro sensor that will control the tail....so, you don't need to run the vbar AND a tail gyro...but, you can if you like--bypassing the vbar's tail gyro.

that's it in a nutshell.

so....why? why spend $450 on electronics that can be handled perfectly by a $2 piece of metal rod and $8 worth of plastic paddles?

1) removing the flybar, flybar cage, seesaw and mixer arms is a non-trivial amount of spinning mass. removing it provides significant performance and flight-time gains--i've seen a .90 class heli add another 1 1/2-2 minutes per tank. i've seen electric 600-class helis add 1-2 minutes of flight time. and, the loss of weight adds a good bit more punch to the heli regardless of power source.

2) nearly unlimited control over cyclic and collective pitch. after all the jumble of mixing arms, levers, seesaws, etc is removed there's free movement from the swash right up to the grips. i've never tried. but, i'd wager i could get 23° of collective with no problem at all (not that anything above 15-16 is usable anyway---i'm just saying....there's virtually no limit).

3) complete control over the head geometry. because all aspects of pitch are controlled electronically you can adjust phasing, roll rate, gain, acceleration/deceleration, and scads more settings i havent even had time to mess with.

4) bling! c'mon...it looks SOOO bada$$$

if it ain't broke, break it.

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04-02-2009 04:16 AM  9 years agoPost 17
Cope

rrVeteran

South Lake Tahoe CA

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Thank you for the great explanation.

So on a kit that has the swash plate balls at a 90 and is not CCPM it could work?

What would be needed to make such a thing happen? Why is it not a ggod idea to just use a gyro on the cyclic? Is the response to fast? Now that we know why it wont work on a CCPM kit what about the EVO or Shuttle?

Thanks again.

Edit cuda great post thanks. We must have posted at the same time.

Fear is the little death,The mind killer. I will allow my fear to pass through me.Only I will remain

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04-02-2009 04:27 AM  9 years agoPost 18
GyroFreak

rrProfessor

Orlando Florida ...28N 81W

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On a setup that has separate servos, one for pitch, one for roll, and one for collective. Then yes, I believe it can be done with two gyros and a lot of tinkering and adjusting (gain,delay,travel on each gyro) but gyro drift and calibration may cause problems which I have no clue on the effects.

I think about the hereafter. I go somewhere to get something, then wonder what I'm here after ?

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04-02-2009 04:30 AM  9 years agoPost 19
cudaboy_71

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sacramento, ca, u.s.

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yes...it will work on all common swash configurations. 90°, 120°, 140° are all basic settings in the vbar software.

as far as 'just using a gyro on cyclic'...that's essentially what you're doing. but, remember a gyro only 'sees' movement in one axis. you need two gyros to control cyclic---left to right, and fore-aft. and, yes i think a few have tried it. but, it requires a software interface to manage the two together. so, ya...take the time to do all that and you've just reinvented the vbar.

Cope: just noticed you're in S. lake tahoe. take a drive down 50 sometime. our field is roughly 50@sunrise about 20 miles shy of downtown sacramento. we've got a few guys flying flybarless. it's pretty amazing stuff.

if it ain't broke, break it.

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04-02-2009 04:36 AM  9 years agoPost 20
Cope

rrVeteran

South Lake Tahoe CA

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This makes me wish I was a programmer

Who invented the wheel?

Alas I will just toss this idea to the side for now.

On a side note, Why aren't we seeing more kits produced with no fly bar? This seems to be the future of RC heli?

Fear is the little death,The mind killer. I will allow my fear to pass through me.Only I will remain

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