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HomeAircraftHelicopterSynergy R/COther › Need help setting throttle curve
03-30-2009 10:57 PM  9 years agoPost 1
missle

rrApprentice

West Chester, Oh

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Got to do my first real flight with my N9 today and in all reality, was a lil dissapointed in it (but still early so no jumping yet) compared to the pop of my 8S Trex 600.

Current equip is YS 91ST, CP 30% fuel, 15T pinion, standard main gear, and no gov but using throttle jockey. I've not tached my HS yet but would like some general TC that folks are using without a gov.
I've currently got mines set 95%-60%-95% in idle1 and 2 and my ail and ele are set at 80% with the CCPM mix set at 60-60-60. I've not measured my cyclic deg yet, but I definately need to increase it a good amount cause flips were extemely slow. I'm going to trying taking both the ele and ail throws up to 90%, and readjusting my pitch curve with a lil pitch for points 2 and 4 (out of a 5 point curve on a DX-7 radio).
So my question to anyone flying the N9 with the above equipment (or the like), what's your CCPM mix %, what's your throttle curves, and what kind of HS do you get?
I plan to fly her again and this time I'll install my eLogger to measure my HS throughout the flights. Thanks.

WATCH OUT!!!!!!!!

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03-31-2009 12:36 AM  9 years agoPost 2
fr8brkr

rrVeteran

Asheville,NC

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Are you using a program mix through the gear channel? How are you controlling the rev limiter? Using a program mix with the DX7 allows you to set S1 and S2 percentages based on desired tached head speed. The curves can be kept in S1 and S2 at 100% flat and set the norm curve for desired head speed at hover. I used a DX7 with RevMAx limiter and was able to acheive 1925- S1 and 1980 -S2 with 78% and 81% respectively. Is set my normal curve at 0,20.45,55,80 and had aprox 1850 hover speed. The only down side is should the limiter fail you have only the choice between hitting TH or return to normal mode to prevent overspeeding.
I had this set-up with YS91SR, 16 tooth pinion, 30%CP. 60,60,55 swash
+11/-11 pitch and 8 degrees cyclic.

Problems ? -- Mine are flown in fresh daily

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03-31-2009 12:41 AM  9 years agoPost 3
cdrking

rrElite Veteran

Seattle

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First thing to do is set the throttle curve in idle up properly. You need to have 100 set on the "ends" of your throttle curves. What you can do for simplicity with the throttle curve is set 100-INH-65-INH-100 with EXP on. Using this method you just adjust the middle point to get the required head speed. 65% in the middle is assuming the throttle linkage and everything else is set correctly. You can set the throttle curve at 100% but you don't have a very good backup throttle curve IMO. IF the governor fails then you will be running at 100% wide open. Just adjust the center/65% point up above your target RPM.

As far as cyclic I'm not sure why you would set ATV/EPA to 80%, you need to set the travels on your AIL-ELE and PIT to 100%. Your swash settings adjust the travel with a CCPM machine. IF you have interaction at the upper and/or lower limits you can adjust the end points. You should also use a swash leveling tool.

I assume you have set all your pitch curves to 0 to 100, these should not change, that is unless you are messing with some time of S pitch curves.

The engine muffler combo is important also. What muffler are you using? With your YS 91ST you need to run the engine around the 16,100 ENGINE RPM mark. You'll have to calculate the head speed based on your gear ratio, 8.27.

To hover is divine, the alternative is rather PLANE.

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03-31-2009 01:35 AM  9 years agoPost 4
missle

rrApprentice

West Chester, Oh

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Thanks guys and to answer a couple of question

1. I'm not using a mix for the revlimiter cause the 7th channel is being used for the glow igniter so I'm not using the remote rev limit. I'm hoping to get it set up correct an so I won't need to adjust in the future (at least not frequently).

2. I'd prefer not to use a straight 100% curve because of #1 and also I'd prefer to have a backup curve. So I'll try the 100-65-100% tomorrow and put the eLogger on to get real time RPMs for the entire flight.

3. Ail and ele are set at 80% in Dual Rate menu and they're both set at 100% in the travel menu. I'm going to try and measure the cyclic in a lil bit. I'm guessing 7-8% should be safe for a stock head?

4. My pitch curves are currently set at 7-15-50-88-95% but I'm about to remeasure and set again. I'm thinking (-10) to (-8) to (0) to (+8) to (+10) but do I need more or less?

5. The muffler is a Hatoria SB6 I believe.

So based on running the motor at 16100 rpm, that means I should be shooting for ~ 1950 HS?

Again, thanks for the help.

WATCH OUT!!!!!!!!

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03-31-2009 02:39 AM  9 years agoPost 5
cdrking

rrElite Veteran

Seattle

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1. You can run just one head speed/percentage in your ATV's on the Rev limiter. You will only have one without using a mix. The one thing nice about using this method is you can use the channel that your governor is on to shut the governor off to fly curves to trouble shoot if needed. For example if you want to run 1900 head speed that MAY be equal to 70% on the governor channel, then you can set the other position to 0 AFTER your initial calibration. All this assumes that your throttle linkage is setup correctly. This thread is an excellent source for throttle setup.

2. Remember that the 65% is just a starting point, you may have to adjust to get the desired head speed.

3. I have never used dual rates so I can't really comment on that. It really depends on your flying skills, if you're not a beginner then I would suggest just going with 100% and forget the dual rates and use a little expo if you like. If you meant 7-8 degrees this also depends on your flying skills. Use more if you want more, the most I've gotten with the N9 is 9 degrees of cyclic. With 9 degrees you should make sure you're not binding or that you are very good at managing the sticks so you don't bind in flight.

4. The pitch also depends a bit on your flying, if you want some wild pitch pumping then run more, if you want a more mellow setup then run less. I would say that running 10 degrees is the minimum that you want to run. I run 4 pitch curves ALL the same, it makes it a lot more simple with setup. I run 13 degrees of positive pitch and 13 degrees of negative pitch. ALL pitch curves are set to 0-25-50-75-100 (EXP on), or for an even more simple setup on the DX7 for example is 0-INH-50-INH-100. If your mechanical setup is correct you will not have issues with using this method.

5. If you meant the SB-16 then that will work great.

I run an OS 91 HZ at 1950 head speed on the stock N9 gear ratio. On my other machine I run a YS 91SR with a 16t pinion at 1950 head speed. I haven't used the YS 91ST in years so I don't recall exactly what would work best for this engine.
I'm guessing 7-8% should be safe for a stock head?
This depends on when your kit was purchased. The original/older kits had a different setup on the head, the newer kits have longer ball links going into the see-saw and the bell mixer. Go to the Synergy web site and search their site for updates. Let me know if you need more details on this.

Jeff

To hover is divine, the alternative is rather PLANE.

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03-31-2009 03:14 AM  9 years agoPost 6
missle

rrApprentice

West Chester, Oh

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Jeff, thanks so much for you time and sharing your wisdom on this wind-slapping king. I'll let you know what I come up with tomorrow. Thanks.

WATCH OUT!!!!!!!!

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03-31-2009 04:58 AM  9 years agoPost 7
cdrking

rrElite Veteran

Seattle

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You are welcome. You will really enjoy it once you get it sorted out.

Jeff

To hover is divine, the alternative is rather PLANE.

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03-31-2009 05:14 AM  9 years agoPost 8
rsimon123086

rrApprentice

Beaumont TX

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If I read what you wrote correctly you said your running 8 and 10 degrees pitch? Thats probably part of the reason its doesnt have much pop. I was running 12-13 with the 710's @1850 and it performed very well. I initially set mine up with +-10 degrees pitch because thats how someone told me to and was not impressed at all. I think you will be more than happy with it once you get it dialed in. There are some really good suggestions above.

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03-31-2009 05:47 AM  9 years agoPost 9
HiroboFreak

rrVeteran

Central Coast, NSW, Australia

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^^

I agree.
Increase your collective to +/- 13° & 8 or 9° cyclic, headspeed to 1950+ & then come back & say you're "disappointed" !

T-rex700n VBar 5.3 Pro | T-rex700e DFC VBar 5.3 Pro | JR DSX9
Team RCBits | Team Lynx

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03-31-2009 12:58 PM  9 years agoPost 10
missle

rrApprentice

West Chester, Oh

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Well I set it up with +/- 11 deg last night but the problem is that at full positive, if I give full up elev and full right ail, then the bottom ball link on the pitch link arm touches the washout arm. So is this simply thing of, don't give full up ele and full right ail when doing climb outs?
I tried to order the longer linkage balls 107-108 and the thicker spacers 109-353 but I can't find anyone that even carrys the spacers (they all have the original 109-351 that are only 1.6mm). Does anyone know who has these spacers?
Last night I removed all the linkage arms to remeasure their lengths and the problem is that if I leave the pitch link arms at 62mm as per the manual, my negative pitch is greatly reduced as well as the 0 pitch being around 39% in the radio (DX7). If I move them in to about 60.5mm, and increase my CCPM mix from 60 to 70%, then I can get 0 pitch at 46% in the radio. My first thought was to just open the short pitch arm up from 39mm to 40mm and then shoot for 50% for the 0 pitch, but that would be the same as using the long pitch arms. Is this a normal variance that I need to just adjust to make it work?

WATCH OUT!!!!!!!!

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03-31-2009 01:27 PM  9 years agoPost 11
missle

rrApprentice

West Chester, Oh

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In regard to my previous post, I just found the spacers 109-353 at Rons helipros and they're ordered. Hopefully will have before the weekend.

WATCH OUT!!!!!!!!

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03-31-2009 05:33 PM  9 years agoPost 12
cdrking

rrElite Veteran

Seattle

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Which hole are you using on the washout arms?

Jeff

To hover is divine, the alternative is rather PLANE.

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03-31-2009 11:56 PM  9 years agoPost 13
missle

rrApprentice

West Chester, Oh

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It's the inner hole and it looks like the previous owner has broken the tips where the outer hole was. Which hole makes the cyclic faster?

Another question is, what's the correct method to measure the cyclic? I did it last night by leveling the frame and the flybar, positioned the main blades 90 deg from the pivot (horizontal to the boom for elv and parallel for the ail), and measured the pitch at full cyclic. I got about 6 deg with the D/R set at 100% and could get ~ 8 deg at 125%. BTW, the distance on the servo arms are ~ 3.8mm from the screw to the ball link, and the servo linkage rods are the recommended lengths. Also, CCPM mix is still 60-60-70.

I got a couple of flights in this afternoon (thanks to my bud CB) and although she's a LITTLE more nimble, she's still very tame. I got my pitch set at +/- 12 deg (any more and the pitch links rub) and the throttle is 100%-70%-100% without gov. I'm a lil worried to go up any further in the middle cause it seems everyones reported only running ~50% in the middle (when NOT using a gov).

I'm getting so close to just going back to electric and converting this damn thing Scorpion better be ready.

WATCH OUT!!!!!!!!

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04-01-2009 12:13 AM  9 years agoPost 14
cdrking

rrElite Veteran

Seattle

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BTW, the distance on the servo arms are ~ 3.8mm from the screw to the ball link
I hope you meant 13.8 mm???? That's a huge difference. The manual states 13-14 mm.

The inner hole on the wash out arms are fine.

Is there anyone nearby with some experience with setting up CCPM machines? Somewhere there are some basic steps being skipped.

What I do is start from the servos and work up to the swash. Then work from the swash up to the blades. You need to get the servo arms 90 degrees to the linkages with zero or very little sub-trim. You also should use a swash leveling tool. Also there should be no reason to use D/R to get your basic setup correct.

Try redoing your basic setup first.

Jeff

To hover is divine, the alternative is rather PLANE.

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04-01-2009 07:05 PM  9 years agoPost 15
Chuckie

rrKey Veteran

Crofton Maryland

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distance on the servo arms are ~ 3.8mm from the screw to the ball link
We normally measure the center of the screw to the center of the ball. 13/14mm is normal.
I got my pitch set at +/- 12 deg (any more and the pitch links rub)
Not sure what you mean the link rubs with what? Can you take a picture of the head with the pitch set at zero and +-12? As Jeff said setup is everything.

You should be able to get +-14 but your ST won't like more than +-13. Even at +-14 pitch with the YS SR you won't have more climbout punch then your 8S Trex 600!!! The weight of the two helis makes the comparison unrealistic. However, you can get the N9 to roll faster than the 600.
and the throttle is 100%-70%-100% without gov. I'm a lil worried to go up any further in the middle cause it seems everyones reported only running ~50% in the middle (when NOT using a gov).
You really need to tack the headspeed with 70 at mid point. The motor won't last long at 2000HS.

Charles

Please stand by for faster service!

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04-02-2009 03:46 AM  9 years agoPost 16
missle

rrApprentice

West Chester, Oh

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Yes I meant 13-14mm for the servo arms.

The lower ball link (on the pitch arm link) rubs on the mixing arms when I use > 12 deg pitch with cyclic. I'll get pics tomorrow night.

On a different note, was reading a thread about how some folks are running 91 size motors on their 60 size heli's so that they can run 0-5% nitro mix with the ulitmate goal being a reduction in fuel cost while not loosing power. Can this be done with some like a 1.20 sz motor on the N9? Just curious.

WATCH OUT!!!!!!!!

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04-04-2009 11:27 PM  9 years agoPost 17
missle

rrApprentice

West Chester, Oh

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Update
So yesturday I took the head and the servo linkages apart and redid everything (again). This time I made a lil mod to the swash keeper by adding two small strips of CF and drilling a new hole for the ele rod. The stock placement of the whole pushes the servo rod up which also allows the bottom of the swash to hit the rod at full neg with forward stick. Now the rod goes through the CF (which eliminates any play) and the alignment is much better.
Unfortunately there was a slight mixup with my order for the updated longer ball links and spacers so I've not had opportunity to do permanent setup, but I was able to get 8-9 deg of cyclic and +/- 14 pitch (but I'm only using +/- 12).
Lastly, I removed the switch glow so that I could run the RevMax via the radio and I've got S1 at 76% and S2 at 82% of which flight performance was MASSIVELY improved. Tic-tocs now have a lil pop and I no longer have to go to full pitch to keep them tight and in one place
I also installed my lil tank (cause I was reading some of the threads about the fuel magnet) and so I checked my filter and sure as heck, there was some foam debree in the filter. I actually installed the header tank just forward and below the main tank (only cause this is a YS under pressure) and it works out great. I got a norm clunk that I'm going to install tonight and that should take care of the foam pieces or having to keep the tank full of fuel (as well as fear of filling too fast, using neg pressure to empty, ect...)

Now the only negative thing was one of my canopy screws came out during flight and of course it hit one of the main blades and took a small chunck out of it. Anyone got a pair of 710 blades for sale?

So todays question is about the revmax. Is there anyone using it with the YS91-ST and the stock 15T pinion? If so, what % are you using? Mines is norm throttle (mid stick) is 45%, S1 is 65%, S2 is 70% and the rev max is off in norm, 76% in S1 and 82% in S2.
Thanks EVERYONE for your help!

WATCH OUT!!!!!!!!

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04-04-2009 11:37 PM  9 years agoPost 18
rsimon123086

rrApprentice

Beaumont TX

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Happy to hear you are getting things straightened out. I still have the set of SAB 710's

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04-04-2009 11:44 PM  9 years agoPost 19
missle

rrApprentice

West Chester, Oh

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I'll take them for the right price. PM your total cost and I get funds to you tonight. Thanks

WATCH OUT!!!!!!!!

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