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HomeAircraftHelicopterEngines Plugs Mufflers Fuel › Need help with my O.S 50 Hyper…. Leaning out damaging the engine :(
01-19-2009 05:08 AM  9 years agoPost 1
JJ-TREX450

rrVeteran

Saginaw, MI - USA

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Need help with my O.S 50 Hyper…. Leaning out damaging the engine 

Alright guys I’ve started facing problems with my engine that leans out on its own. It happened earlier few months back and ended up in a crash, due to loss of tail control. After the crash, I’d check my engine and seemed all ok to me. That time I was using 15 % Nitro, 20 % Castrol and 65 % Methanol. After the re-birth of my Vibe 50 after 3 months, I didn’t face such a problem again till a day before yesterday. This time I changed the fuel to 25 % Nitro, 20 % Klotz and 55 % Methanol.
I did a flight on Saturday, and after 2 min the engine leaned out on its own, landed and flew again. This time the engine was acting alright. Due to this leaning out of the engine on its own my needle was set at 2 ¾ Turns.
Well, anyhow I planned on adding little Castrol and methanol towards the existing fuel to bring it down to 20% Nitro, 4% Caster & 16.6 % Klotz, and 60 % Methanol. Yesterday I took my heli out for some 3D, but on the first hover the engine leaned out, I landed and richened the needle to 3 turns to check, if this helps? The answer was No, it didn’t. I went back home, took the engine apart and found (grains on the piston head and the engine head)?? Now what can cause this, after being very careful with my engine?

The fuel lines are not leak.
I’m using stock main tanks fuel line.
Checked everything and seemed ok to me.
Do I use after run oil? No I don’t, but now I will star using one.

View the pictures and let me know the best possible solution and what caused this… Other then this my muffler outlet turned orange 

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01-19-2009 05:15 AM  9 years agoPost 2
george0079

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USA

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if you were at 2 3/4 turns, and running lean, then you have a problem with the fuel delivery system (plugged fuel line, bad clunk line, debris in the carb... ect). not the fuel.

Hell... I can fix that.
Uh oh..
Nope.
It's ***ked!!!
RE-KIT!!!!!

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01-19-2009 05:17 AM  9 years agoPost 3
tadawson

rrElite Veteran

Lewisville, TX

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Loose muffler/plugged pressure tap? That can make you go lean as well . . . .

- Tim

Friends don't let friends become electrotarded . . . .

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01-19-2009 07:39 AM  9 years agoPost 4
itsjojo

rrKey Veteran

North East Pennnsylvania

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Here is my vote:
if you were at 2 3/4 turns, and running lean, then you have a problem with the fuel delivery system
I have learned to replace all the cheap stuff first to help prevent wasting my time hunting for possible causes to my problem. I don't meet a lot of people that agree with that but it's just me. I consider it routine maintenance.

If this were my heli. I would replace all fuel lines with a fuel tank kit,(clunk,clunk line tank stopper etc) New muffler gasket. check muffler nipple.

2 3/4 turns out is WAY rich as we all know.
Good luck. Nobody would want this problem, but is will get worked out.
Jojo

JoJo
Foreseeing My Flybarless Future!

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01-19-2009 08:25 AM  9 years agoPost 5
JJ-TREX450

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Saginaw, MI - USA

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What's the point of replacing the fuel lines, when there is nothing wrong with it? That's my first question.
The other thing I wanted to ask you guys was that, are you using stock clunk,clunk line tank stopper etc??
Last question. Do I need to replace any parts of my engine, after all what happened (As shown in the pictures??)

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01-19-2009 09:34 AM  9 years agoPost 6
rgl726

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cebu city, philippines

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check your fuel filter if you have.

clean the carb.

raymond

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01-19-2009 11:11 AM  9 years agoPost 7
itsjojo

rrKey Veteran

North East Pennnsylvania

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If your fuel lines are brand new then there is no point. If they maybe suspect then I always go and replace things associated with the problem. Call it process of elimination. I have been the victim of troubled aircraft before to find a small problem(s) that had been overlooked. Specifically fuel related.

Another reason for my style of maintenance (preventative maintenance) is that with Rc aircraft I have seen many (including myself) let parts go until they fail in the air.

Good Luck with it.

JoJo
Foreseeing My Flybarless Future!

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01-19-2009 02:28 PM  9 years agoPost 8
dkshema

rrMaster

Cedar Rapids, IA

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Let's ignore the 500 pound gorilla in the room:
took the engine apart and found grains on the piston head and the engine head
and replace the fuel lines instead.

WHAT causes big dents and dings in the crown of the piston and the inside of the cylinder head?

HARD FOREIGN OBJECTS that don't belong there. I would guess that you don't have much in the way of a rear bearing left in your motor as it appears that large pieces have made their way through your motor and out the exhaust.

Second, what's the idea of screwing around with your fuel constantly? There's absolutely no reason on earth to be adding Castor Oil, Klotz, Methanol, unless you're blending your own stuff, and that, in and of itself is a can of worms. Unless you really know what you're doing, getting a consistent batch time after time is not easy.

And you're running CASTOR OIL, up to 20%. That would explain why what's left of your piston (remember those big dents in the top?) is a nice brown color.

Castor oil is great stuff as it burns when it gets hot, taking some of the excess heat out of the motor as it does. That can protect you from a lean run or two, much better than the synthetic lubes. BUT, as it BURNS, it leaves behind a gummy residue known as varnish.

Once you form varnish inside your motor (it forms on the piston skirt, and on the cylinder walls), it causes the motor to run hotter and hotter, and leaner and leaner. You compensate by opening up the needle valves, but the cycle continues - runs hot, builds up varnish, engine quits "lean", open the needle ...). Eventually, your motor runs like crap and you really can't find a decent needle setting that will work for an entire tank of fuel.

If you've gone through the fuel system and you're happy after replacing all the hoses, then

1. Fix your motor. The rear bearing is gone by the looks of the piston and inside of the head. If there's enough of the motor left to repair, do so, otherwise, you may need a new Hyper. Figure the cost of the repair parts and make the economically sound decision to either repair it, or replace it.

2. Find a fuel mix that works, AND STICK WITH IT. Stop with the additive of the day. I'd rather fly than keep screwing around with my fuel every day.

3. Castor's fine as a lubricant, but it NOT great for helis due to the higher operating temperatures and poorer cooling involved (as compared to a plank). Synthetic lube-based fuels work much better in helis. Just learn to tune the needles properly.

4. If your piston and cylinder are not totally trashed by the bearing going through your motor, you need to clean them to remove all the old varnish deposits so the darn thing will run again.

Cleaning is a whole 'nother thread, can be done by at least three different methods.

-----
Dave

* Making the World Better -- One Helicopter at a time! *

Team Heliproz

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01-19-2009 06:39 PM  9 years agoPost 9
FLYINFOOL

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Cudahy, WI

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Yes the 500 LB gorilla would be my first stop also.
98 times out of 100 the damage that you see on the piston is from a bad rear bearing. Once in a while it can be caused by the glow plug element bouncing around after it has failed and fallen out of the plug. Every once in a while it possible to ingest something to cause that damage.

Bad bearings can also cause an air leak that will make the engine run lean.
And you're running CASTOR OIL, up to 20%. That would explain why what's left of your piston (remember those big dents in the top?)is a nice brown color.
I am not sure if that is what you meant, but the damage to the piston was not caused by the Castor oil. I have been adding 1% Castor to all of my fuel since I got into helies 10 years ago, before that I ran only Castor. Granted I do not burn a lot of fuel, only 8-10 cases a year with the vast majority of that through a single Hyper 50.

It is very common for the clunk line inside of the main tank to deteriorate very quickly (depending on brand), especially if you run the engine out of fuel at the end of the day. I have seen clunk lines fail after only a month or two.

If you are at 2-3/4 to 3 turns out and going lean, you have a problem that needs to found before you fly again.


Jeff Borowski
RAMS Club President
www.ramsrcclub.com

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01-19-2009 07:05 PM  9 years agoPost 10
Helirat

rrApprentice

Michigan

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I have to agree with replace the stock main tanks fuel line.
Even though the fuel line is not split and has no leak in it
There is the possibility of a soft spot in the tubing and just
The presser in the tank can cause the fuel line to get pinched
Thus causing the lean run.

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01-19-2009 09:04 PM  9 years agoPost 11
GREYEAGLE

rrElite Veteran

Flat Land's

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Was the fuel cold ?
Winter flying can raise the viscosity of the lube, doesn't like to flow thru the needle openings. You'll notice it when you clean, it's like vasoline.

greyeagle

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01-20-2009 12:38 AM  9 years agoPost 12
dkshema

rrMaster

Cedar Rapids, IA

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And you're running CASTOR OIL, up to 20%. That would explain why what's left of your piston (remember those big dents in the top?)is a nice brown color.
The stuff in parentheses was referring to the fact that the brown color isn't THE problem, but rather the piston and inside of the head looks like someone took a small ball-pein hammer to them and started wailing away. IF the piston was still OK, that dark brown stuff is burnt castor oil, and varnish.

The piston and head are trashed from bearings smashing around inside the motor, and people are still hung up on "replace the fuel line" or "your fuel got too thick from the cold."

The gorilla seems to be alive and well.

I can't believe it, is this a dream?

-----
Dave

* Making the World Better -- One Helicopter at a time! *

Team Heliproz

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01-20-2009 05:39 AM  9 years agoPost 13
JJ-TREX450

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Saginaw, MI - USA

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That’s strange that after 60 flights’ you assume that my engines rear bearing went bad. Well, I checked my engine thoroughly and didn’t find any rust or broken metal objects inside. Still I cleaned it with methanol thoroughly, gave few drops of (Tornado) “After Run Oil” from back plate and closed it out.

As far as the fuel is concerned “Dkshema”. The reason I keep changing my fuel is due the fact of its shortage in the country I’m residing in. Usually we can’t find synthetic oil here, so we need to use only Castrol. But this time, when I walked into my hobby shop. I found nitro fuel containing nitro and Klotz in it. I added Castrol; just to bring down the nitro level from 25 % to 20 %. Correction. I’m running Castrol only 4 % and 16 % is Klotz.
Well now I plan to stick with one fuel mixture, if my problem resolves. I would love to stick to synthetic lube-based fuels, but that only varies upon their availability.

The other part is that if there wouldn’t have been bearing worn out, I would have seen scratch on my engines cylinder, not only on the piston. Where as the cylinder is shining but the piston has worn outs from the top. But not anymore as I cleaned it out till the best I could have done. So that dings on the piston and the head are caused by something else, which I’m not sure of what? What do you say “Dkshema”

Other then This I checked the fuel tank pressure and there was no leak. But after reading your threads, I planned to open my whole Tank system for check and this is what I found! A crack in the Tank Grommet or you can say a total worn out Tank Grommet ! Look at the picture for clear views. Now I’ve a question from all of you guys. If there was a crack in the Tank Grommet then why wasn’t there a leak?? I checked it and am sure there was no leak. Now can this crack make the engine go lean?? If so how and why?? Other then this I didn’t replaced all the fuel lines as they’re perfect, but still I might change the inner line of the fuel tank as “Helirat” Stated that it can be pinched. For now let me know how would Tank Grommet crack make my engine go lean??

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01-20-2009 08:11 AM  9 years agoPost 14
Helirat

rrApprentice

Michigan

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Can this crack make the engine go lean?? Yes

Not sure of what method you used to check the tank pressure?
but the crack mite of been able to hold the fuel back from leaking
with no pressure but a crack in the Tank Grommet means loss of tank pressure
thus little fuel getting to the engine, less exhaust being made to make the pressure needed.
Hope that make sense

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01-20-2009 02:44 PM  9 years agoPost 15
FLYINFOOL

rrKey Veteran

Cudahy, WI

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Did you actually remove the rear bearing to check it out or just look at it? You must at least remove the crank and clean the bearing to feel it with your finger for any roughness.

60 Flights is on the high end of life for a stock OS Hyper rear bearing.
Typical life of that bearing is more around 40-50 flights. Some get more, some get less. I am figuring 10 flights per gallon so that you have burned 6 gallons. typical life is about 4 gallons. There are aftermarket bearings that hold up much better.

When you get bearing parts into the cylinder they seldom damage the cylinder walls, the damage to the piston and head are caused when the chunks get trapped and squeezed between the piston and the head around the outside edge while the piston is at top dead center.

That damage IS caused by something hard getting into the engine, you must find that source or you will just blow it up again and again. As was mentioned above, the rear bearing starting to go is the most common cause of that damage. Check over the rest of the heli to make sure that there is not some other part going bad like maybe a clutch where the parts from that could be sucked into the carb and cause the damage.

You can clean up the piston and head using 400 or 600 wet/dry paper just to take off the raised edges around the dents, no more than that. If the ring still moves freely in the groove then you are OK.


Jeff Borowski
RAMS Club President
www.ramsrcclub.com

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01-21-2009 05:57 AM  9 years agoPost 16
JJ-TREX450

rrVeteran

Saginaw, MI - USA

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Thanks for the help you guys provided with......
I just opened the back plate and the head of the engine to see if there were any particles of that bearing, if that has been damaged. As I didn’t find any thing there, I assumed that the bearing would have been fine. As removing the bearing means, to remove the front assemblies, which I believe is a lot of time consuming. To check the exact condition of the bearing, I’ll need to remove the Crankshaft.
It’s already a lot frustrating that more time is consumed in fixing up the heli comparable to its flight time.
Here is a question. If the bearing would have been damaged, I would have seen the engines cylinder in bad shape, where as it’s not.
As far as the heli is concerned, I’ve thoroughly check the whole clutch system, and it’s perfect. No damages or worn outs.
Between I’ve already cleaned my piston with a nail polish remover, seems to be shinning once again, and rest with methanol. But if the damage is cause by bearing why cant I find it’s small particles all over in the engine???

I’m thinking to switch over to some other engine, if O.s has a problem.

What’s better? Hyper or an Y.S engine?

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01-21-2009 06:54 AM  9 years agoPost 17
Blik

rrApprentice

Ontario North

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It would take you aprox 1 minute to take the engine apart from where it is in your pictures. To dismantle the engine completely just do the following:

1. put a few drops of afterrun oil or ATF in the exhaust port to lube the piston and on the lower bushing of the connecting rod.

2. turn your crank until your piston is at the bottom of the liner.

3. grab the liner and turn it slightly while pulling up to remove it from the crank case/piston. If it is seized you can add heat to just the crankcase and gently grab with a good pair of pliers.

4. move your crank so the piston is to the top.

5. tilt you engine so the backplate is down and grab the connecting rod and it should almost fall of the crank pin.

6. remove the piston and connecting rod from the engine.

7. push the front threaded part of the crank against a piece of wood and it should pop out of the two bearings and then remove it from the engine.

8. inspect all bearings, engine parts for damage and wear.

It sounds like you may have a broken piston ring or I noticed your head didn't have a glow plug in it? What shape was your glow plug in?

To remove the bearings all you need is an oven or I use a toaster oven and a piece of wood. There are lots of posts on how to remove engine bearings but PM me if you would like more info.

Cheers
Blik

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01-21-2009 07:28 AM  9 years agoPost 18
JJ-TREX450

rrVeteran

Saginaw, MI - USA

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Sure I think I’ll need to move forward, in putting my engine apart. once I’m done with it, will post its pictures.
What does the 2 yrs warranty covers...?
will give you updates on it Blik

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01-21-2009 01:17 PM  9 years agoPost 19
FLYINFOOL

rrKey Veteran

Cudahy, WI

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In some cases where there is no sign of overheating due to a lean run Os has warranted that damage.
I had an engine That blew the rear bearing halfway thru the first tank.
OS tried to say it was my fault (their standard responce) but did replace it with a new engine. I have seen others sent in with bad rear bearing and the piston and head damage that were older but still under warranty get repaired.
Here is a question. If the bearing would have been damaged, I would have seen the engines cylinder in bad shape, where as it’s not.
In most cases where the damage is light like in yours, it is NOT common to see cylinder damage. There is only cylinder damage when the piston gets deformed enough to lock the ring and the ring then cuts grooves in the cylinder.

Before you disassemble any further I would call OS and talk to them.
If they will warrant it then just send it in.
3. grab the liner and turn it slightly while pulling up to remove it from the crank case/piston. If it is seized you can add heat to just the crankcase and gently grab with a good pair of pliers.
NOOooo!!
Pliers and engine do not mix. If you are not perfect with your pliers you can easily destroy the cylinder.
If the cylinder liner is tight, and it should be, use a heat gun to heat the block to where you just unable to hold it in you hand. Or put it in the oven at 200 deg F for about 5 min, then while hot the cylinder will slide out. You will notice a tiny V notch at the rear of the cylinder there is a very tiny pin in that notch that lines up the cylinder. DO NOT try to turn the cylinder till it is out far enough to clear that pin.


Jeff Borowski
RAMS Club President
www.ramsrcclub.com

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01-21-2009 04:27 PM  9 years agoPost 20
Blik

rrApprentice

Ontario North

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NOOooo!!
Pliers and engine do not mix. If you are not perfect with your pliers you can easily destroy the cylinder.

If it is seized you can add heat to just the crankcase and gently grab with a good pair of pliers.
Jeff, as you see I have stated "Gently" which means to just grab the outside of the liner as you would with your fingers. Being a Mekanik I have worked on many two and four stroke engines and I agree it is not recommended by the manufacturer to use improper tools but sometimes you have to do what is required and common sense always rules.

Cheers
Blik

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