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Next-D › 2221-8/10 4S lipo setup
01-17-2009 10:05 AM  9 years agoPost 1
JSX

rrApprentice

France

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Hi
So I contact Powerhelis and I can deal the brushless exchange to have the 2221-8
I'll sell all my 3S lipos, Aplus, Zippy and Rhino, and go for 4S setup.
I run a phoenix 35, so I don't want at this time 350 blades. Next-D 325 of the kit will be perfect.
In 4S with the 3395 kv rate, I think I will go on 13T with something like 85 % gov, or 14T and 80% gov. In both cases, main rotor rpm will be 3200, and motor rpm will be 40550. So it's ok for the Scorpion limits. I'll set the pitch limits to +/- 11° or +/- 12°. Big power in perspective
I need advice for batteries. I'll go on Rhinos or Flightmax by Zippy brand. I've got some hesitations about weight and CG.
First lipo is Rhino 4S 1750 20 C with 199 gr.
Second lipo is Flightmax 4S 2200 20 C with 228 gr.
The price is the same. Weight difference is 29 gr. Is it a real problem for get the right CG, and for disk loading with 325 blades?
Is there a possibility to install ESC and RX in another place of the Frame? It can be hard to find a place for the ESC without put it too close of the Gyro.
My ESC/UBEC combo is 30 gr and RX 5 gr, so it can really help to get right CG with the 229 gr weighted Flightmax.....
Need some advice please before choosing
Thanks
Jean

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01-17-2009 04:25 PM  9 years agoPost 2
ke6d

rrApprentice

San Jose, CA

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On 4S, the 2221-8 motor rpm will be 14.8 x 3595 = 53206.

I have been running the -8 motor on 4S on my T-Rex 450 for more than a year without any problem. You may also need to change the bearings more often on 4S due to the high motor rpm.

The Outrage 4S 1800 mA pack is light and works well.

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01-17-2009 06:32 PM  9 years agoPost 3
JSX

rrApprentice

France

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Thanks
Ok I understand, you calculate the motor rpm at 100% throttle without any charge on the motor.
With governor mode at 85% for exemple, it will be cooler because motor runs always under 50000 rpm.
I just understand too that pignon at 0° pitch wasn't a big concern for motor rpm, only for rotor rpm
Thanks
What was your flying time with Outrage 1800?
About Scorpions, I know some guys who upgrade the bearings with quality ABEC 5 bearings, and they don't worry about this after that.

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01-17-2009 06:51 PM  9 years agoPost 4
Sky Dancer

rrVeteran

Bryan, Texas

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Hi JSX,

I think Curtis may be running a 12T pinion on his 4S Scorpion -8 setup, but I could be wrong. He tries many different combinations and it's hard to know "what he's using now".

It's a pleasure knowing he's out there trying something new every day.

I'm also running a 4S setup (OUTRAGE XP25 4S1P 14.8V 2200mAH 25C) at 236gr and while the Rave is just a little nose heavy, I really don't see any irregular flying characteristics to speak of.

By the way, Buzzin Brian mentioned there will be a tail boom mount for the TR servo (available soon) to allow the TR servo to be moved rearward for balancing the model if desired.

Have fun with your build!

Don C

Keep up your rotor speed !

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01-17-2009 07:30 PM  9 years agoPost 5
JSX

rrApprentice

France

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Hi
Thanks for these good infos And hope I'll build it fine, I've read yesterday the pdf manual and its clarity is really impressive
I think you use Zippy 4S too, is it exact?? How do they compare to Outrage 4S?
Do you think 230 gr will be ok on 325 blades for disk loading?
I reconsider which motor is better for me, as a 3D beginner. 2221-08 or 2221-10? Will the 10 better for my Phoenix 35 with 325 blades? The max amp draw on 10 > is 42 A, and on 8 > 44 A. The CC35 can handle 45 A peaks. With 325 blades and +/-11 pitch, I think both of them will be ok. The 8 can offer better power on 350 blades, isn't it? It can be a better option if I switch to 350 blades and 45 ESC in future.
I've got a Z-motor Z-10A too, it can be good for first flights and discover the Rave with less crazy setup

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01-18-2009 12:45 AM  9 years agoPost 6
ke6d

rrApprentice

San Jose, CA

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JSX, you need to know that in the beginning the 4S pack voltage is around 16V. 16 x 3595 is about 57K rpm. The bearing won't last long at that speed. The -10 motor is a much better motor to use for 4S.

I run a 2221-10 motor with 13T on mine on 4S setup. I like to run about 3000 rpm on 350mm blades.

Can fly pretty aggressive for 4:30 - 5:00 min

Last week, I was running 2221-8 motor with a 15T pinion on 3S, but I found out the motor bogged quite badly on bigger pinion.

4S is the way to go on the Rave.

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01-18-2009 01:01 AM  9 years agoPost 7
JSX

rrApprentice

France

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Thanks Ke6D So I'll go with the 10, I don't want to have problems and damage bearings in 10 flights. Is it possible to run 350 blades/4S/2221-10 on a phoenix 35 esc?? Or 325 are necessary with this esc?
Thanks

~¤°Rave~4S/350¤Trex250°¤~

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01-18-2009 01:27 AM  9 years agoPost 8
BOOGIE

rrElite Veteran

LAFAYETTE LA

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JSX Im running that setup on my Rave with a Castle BEC its working great

MSH USA / Lynx Heli Innovations

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01-18-2009 01:38 AM  9 years agoPost 9
JSX

rrApprentice

France

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Yo good to read that Thanks for report Boogie, I don't need to buy a new esc

~¤°Rave~4S/350¤Trex250°¤~

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01-18-2009 01:50 AM  9 years agoPost 10
BOOGIE

rrElite Veteran

LAFAYETTE LA

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Damn I losing my mind I have a CC45 in my Rave sorry. But I dont see why the CC35 would not work as long as you use a separate BEC

MSH USA / Lynx Heli Innovations

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01-18-2009 01:59 AM  9 years agoPost 11
Funky Trex

rrElite Veteran

Westerville, OH - USA

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I don't have a Rave, but I do have a Trex 450 with a -8 on 4S. I have been running this setup for well over a year and easily more than 500 flights... with a CC35 and Medusa BEC. I have never had a problem with over-heating or power cutting out. It is a killer setup.

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01-18-2009 02:25 AM  9 years agoPost 12
JSX

rrApprentice

France

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Thanks very much guys I've got a Hobbywing 3A/6V bec, it's not the best but works very nice. In fact, I worried about cc35/4S/2221-10 or 8 and 350 blades, because I'm sure amp peaks will be higher with these long Radix. Perhaps I can limit +/- pitch to avoid problems? I haven't got any data recording module like "watts up", so it's hard to control anything. I don't want to burn ESC and crash the Rave because of a bad setup. I never practiced autos at the field, except in two non voluntary cases, because of broken belt...and landings weren't beautiful
So I need to be sure with this ESC/blades question before purchase the custom kit (motor and blades), to keep my mind cool during flying, and avoid a stupid and expensive crash.
Hope someone has this setup, or can tell me how to control the limits.
Perhaps with the ESC protection set to "Intensitive" during testing??? At this time, it's on "disabled", perhaps dangerous for firsts flights and pignon choice, +/- pitch tests....
Thanks you for help me
Jean

~¤°Rave~4S/350¤Trex250°¤~

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01-18-2009 03:54 AM  9 years agoPost 13
CUheli

rrNovice

Kansas City

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I run the -8 w/ 4s on the rave and use 350mm blades. I have about 25 flights with this setup and the motor has not developed any slop. As long as you oil the bearings it should last a very long time. Also, if you use the -8 w/ 12t pinion you will not be at 100% throttle, I believe I am gov at around 70%.

As far as the esc please let us know how you fare w/ the cc35. I use a cc60 which is way overkill and I will be changing it out soon for either the cc35 or 45.

Dont set the esc for current limiting disables as you will void your castle warranty. Keep it on insensitive, I have not had any problems at that setting. If you end up using a -10 go with a 14t pinion. If you want to test the heli, do some hard pitch pumps durring your first few flights. Keep it low incase it cuts out so you can just auto it down.

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01-18-2009 04:10 AM  9 years agoPost 14
JSX

rrApprentice

France

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Ok thanks for your advice I'll set it on insensitive, and do small jumps...I hope it don't hurt the sun with this setup
CC35 weights only 20 gr which is very low. And it's of course rated at 35 A constant, but can handle 45 A peaks. I only read good things about its capabilities, so I hope it will do the job. I'll report my tests as soon I did them

~¤°Rave~4S/350¤Trex250°¤~

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01-18-2009 04:21 AM  9 years agoPost 15
JSX

rrApprentice

France

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By the way, is it a necessity to open the Scorpion each time you oil the bearings? Or is there another way? Upgrade to high quality bearings can reduce this maintenance? Not easy to make this at the field if you make more than 5 flights....

~¤°Rave~4S/350¤Trex250°¤~

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01-18-2009 09:43 AM  9 years agoPost 16
OICU812

rrMaster

Edson, Alberta, Canada

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You can buy the oiling kit from several vendors, it comes with a few very small long needles and you can oil the bearings easily and quickly. I suggest about every 10 flights to put a drop or two in each bearing, they will last along time of you do this simple preventative maintenence. You do not need to take it apart etc.

...Once upon a time there were Nitros, flybars and frequency pins...

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01-18-2009 04:15 PM  9 years agoPost 17
Sky Dancer

rrVeteran

Bryan, Texas

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Yes, the "Scorpion bearing lubrication kit" is very easy to use without disassembling the motor. I found it at PowerHelis http://www.powerhelis.com/prodinfo.asp?number=SCORPLUBE
and like OICU812 mentioned, a number of others carry it too,

Don C

Keep up your rotor speed !

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01-18-2009 05:41 PM  9 years agoPost 18
JSX

rrApprentice

France

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Thanks I'll buy it with the kit.
So here is my theory with the 2221-8 max rpm problem: it can handle 50000 rpm. It's a problem ONLY if if you run it too fast. In governor mode set to have 3200 rpm on main rotor, it will be ALWAYS under the limit. I make a screenshot of a french soft and inscrust english translations for help you understanding, please click on it >>

It's set with Lipo/4S, 3595KV, 85% efficiency, 85% throttle (0° pitch), 13T/177T >> Rotor rpm is 3204, motor rpm is 43636. So it's OK With this setup motor rpm will be always under 50000. The only thing is >> NEVER run it at 100% throttle without pignon or 0° pitch.
It's just a software, so reality will have variations and a tachometer is a necessity, but the numbers are right.
So what do you think about? Isn't it cool to run the 2221-8 on the Rave/4S ?
For comparison, 2221-10 with the same rotor rpm runs at 40698 rpm, so it's not a such difference.
Here are the specs of all Scorpion 2221 Series.

~¤°Rave~4S/350¤Trex250°¤~

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01-18-2009 06:07 PM  9 years agoPost 19
Sky Dancer

rrVeteran

Bryan, Texas

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JSX,

IMHO, The -8/4S combination is a very hot setup and the -8 is not recommended for 4S (although some like really hot setups). I personally use the -10/14T/4S setup and it is a hot setup running 3440 head speed. The -8/4S setup is much hotter than the -10/4S. I personally wouldn't use the -8/4S setup and then use a governor to slow it down. You'll simply draw more current (shorter flight times and hotter operation) than the -10 and you may fall below the best power curve for the -8. You also can gear the -10 to help lower the head speed as well as the governor.

All that being said, it's boils down to a personal choice and you'll probably enjoy whatever choice you make.

Don C

Keep up your rotor speed !

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01-18-2009 06:26 PM  9 years agoPost 20
JSX

rrApprentice

France

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I don't keep in mind all factors, so thanks for help me in the choice. So Governor is not the best way to go in 4S setup? If I understand well, run the 2221-8 too low in gov mod reduce efficiency and draw more current, at the disavantage of flight times. And if the motor runs very hot, its life will be shorter of course.
I just want the best balance between power and flight times. This is the first reason why I choose 4S setup. 3.30 or less with 3S is too short for me. I really need 5 mn to have fun. And 350 blades make the Rave a litte class 500, with better stability in very fast flying. And I love flying fast And the possibility to make aerobatics autos is a very good thing, because I love do them in sim. It's my overall thought on these setup questions. But I don't want to forget humility. It's a so important quality in life like in heli flying. If I take a too hot setup, I'll crash and cry!!! So if some very good pilots of yours qualify 2221-10 setup of hot setup, it's really enough for me. It's finally stupid to always search the ultime setup in power if flying level is not here. I'm not Curtis with its 8 Scorpion
Thanks to help me keep my excited mind more cool

~¤°Rave~4S/350¤Trex250°¤~

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