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01-13-2009 12:06 PM  9 years agoPost 21
TmMugen

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Tiny Little Red Dot aka Singapore

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"60" in the gyro sense menu? I am using the gyro sense menu with 30 to 40% gain.

I will try it out. Also, do you set the tail blade at 0 pitch? or the slider arm at 90 degree?

Thanks for the input.

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01-13-2009 03:54 PM  9 years agoPost 22
DWS6

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Newark,DE

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Set the tail blade pitch so that it hovers in Rate mode. Turn up the limiter pot all the way (make sure it doesnt bind) and move the ball in to 11.5mm Set the gain in the gyro menu to 67% and she will hold like a champ. I pull terminal tail slides from 300+ feet and it will not give. Fast backwards flight and Hurricanes are no problem either. I also use 95mm Radix so if you fly smaller tail blades you can go a little higher on the gain.

Above is my exact setup on my 9303 Tx.

Dave Williams
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01-13-2009 06:32 PM  9 years agoPost 23
AaronJohnson

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mason,MI

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If you have a value les then "50" in the gyro menu then you are in rate mode. So if you have 30-40 in your gyromenu then you arent in heading hold mode. I set my tail up in hover in rate mode 1st, which will "90 deg" the tail linkages. now I use a value of 60 in gyro menu which is heading hold gain and so far so good. Note: this is not 60% gain though, the values in the gyro menu are not "true gain"
Set the tail blade pitch so that it hovers in Rate mode. Turn up the limiter pot all the way (make sure it doesnt bind) and move the ball in to 11.5mm Set the gain in the gyro menu to 67% and she will hold like a champ. I pull terminal tail slides from 300+ feet and it will not give. Fast backwards flight and Hurricanes are no problem either. I also use 95mm Radix so if you fly smaller tail blades you can go a little higher on the gain.

Above is my exact setup on my 9303 Tx.
When I moved my link ball into the 11mm hole and turned the limiter pot up all the way, my tail slider wasnt even coming close to binding which is why i moved it to the 14mm spot. My limiter pot is about 7/8 of the way up. How fast is your piros with the ball at 11mm?

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01-13-2009 08:24 PM  9 years agoPost 24
DWS6

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Newark,DE

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As I am sure you know, the pirouette speed is controlled by the Dual Rate. My D/R is at 55% and I would say it is about 550-600 deg/s. I have alot more to go and it is a blur when up to 100%. at 11.5mm my tail is just about maxed on the inside and about a 1/4" away on the outside. Also note that I am using the inner hole on the pitch slider arm in the back and the pirouette speed is the same left and right even though my ATV's are both at 150. Here are some pictures

Dave Williams
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01-13-2009 10:03 PM  9 years agoPost 25
AaronJohnson

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mason,MI

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I will fly mine the way it is right now. If i need to move the ball in on the servo horn anymore to get more resolution then i will move the ball in on the pitch arm like you did also. When I had mine at 11mm on the servo arm I didnt get that much tail pitch slider travel. Mine is a blurr on high rates (105% atv with 100% high rate) Low rate is probably like yours 550-600 degrees roughly. Thanks

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01-14-2009 02:38 AM  9 years agoPost 26
DWS6

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Yeah, that would be why you did not have as much throw on the outer hole. If you move it in then you can get the throw that I have at 11.5mm.

I dont mean to criticize your setup, but are you aware that JR recommends to have the ATV at 150 for maximum resolution and to control the piro rate with the D/R? I recongnize they both due the same thing but you get higher resolution at 150 ATV.

Dave Williams
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01-14-2009 04:19 AM  9 years agoPost 27
AaronJohnson

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mason,MI

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No, I did not realize that the ATV's had anything to due with resolution. When it gets warm enough here to fly again then I will be doing some tweaking. Probably not for about 2 months though. No offense taken, so far its working good but I am always open to suggestions to improve my setup. I only have a little over a gallon thru my vibe so I havent had a lot of time to mees with it.

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01-18-2009 02:15 AM  9 years agoPost 28
TmMugen

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Tiny Little Red Dot aka Singapore

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Guys:

Side track a bit. I am using JR12X and the Gyro Menu for setting up the gain in the tail. My current gain on trex600n is 17% in head hold mode. Any higher it will wag the tail. There is also an option to change the heading hold mode to non heading hold from "t" to "n".

Is my gain too low?

My servo horn is 11mm,
8900g with JR770
ATV: 150 L/R
D/R: 40%

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01-18-2009 03:45 AM  9 years agoPost 29
Goose(is dead...)

rrApprentice

UK

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Theorys', not solutions
This is really just a small extension to DWS6’s post:
but are you aware that JR recommends to have the ATV at 150 for maximum resolution and to control the piro rate with the D/R? I recongnize they both due the same thing but you get higher resolution at 150 ATV.
This worked for me, but maybe I got luck perhaps?

A mate who is a very good pilot told me never to lower the ATV's on the tail. If you want to slow the piro rate (once again as mentioned DWS6), use your Dual Rates not ATV’s.

1. Just for this hypothetical scenario, let's say Max ATV's are 150%. These are set prior to your gyro set-up. I HAVE NOT programmed a 770. Flown with one seemed fine, but don't know it backwards like the others' on this thread.

2. With the Solid G at one of the steps in programming the left and right extremities are set by watching the tail blade collar move in and out to the maximum mechanical position. Now the Gyro knows the mechanical limits it must work with in.

3. If your Dual Rates are at 100 % let's assume that this results in a crazy piro speed and needs to be reduced by 50%. Instead of lowering the ATV's, I was taught to lower the Dual Rates; The reason being, if at some stage in the flight the Gyro needs to work really hard to keep the tail where you want it, it will still (in its own little computer head) know it has - mechanically - 150% ATV's to work within and therefore will perform what you want more quickly and more precisely and further, reduce the propensity for Type 2 hunting (this is a different type of hunting than a “too high gain hunting” ).

Type 2 hunting is when the tail blade angles are so low, the gyro uses the max tail angle available to it when trying to hold the tail or bring it around by your command but when it tries to stop the tail where you want it to stop, there’s not enough angle in the blades to do so; It over shoot’s the mark, repeats this cycle and continues to oscillate, hence Type 2 Hunting .

4. So, in this case, even though your full left / right stick input will not reach the 150% ATV value, the gyro can when it needs to. If you drop your ATV's the gyro now thinks that it has less mechanicl travel to work with even though this is incorrect. If the max angles of the tail blades are low that will lead to poor locking in and again, Type 2 hunting.
Any higher it will wag the tail. There is also an option to change the heading hold mode to non heading hold from "t" to "n".

Is my gain too low?

My servo horn is 11mm,
8900g with JR770
ATV: 150 L/R
D/R: 40%
The non-heading hold is really scale heli’s, so the tail comes around nice and smooth on a circuit rather than an immediate lock-in. But no doubt there’s always an exception to the rule. The Vibe though, needs to be in “t”.

Onquick96 mentioned he had to move his ball joint on the servo horn out to 17mm in effect, making the changes in the tail rotor angles faster. That's certainly worth looking at.

Almost done !!

a. Head speed – many pilots on this forum have recently acquired a new Rave 450 electric by CY. And although they are totally different heli’s a few were experiencing hunting and it was caused by the head speed being too low. Type 2 Hunting again. Does your hunting change in different flight modes? My head speed approx,~~ N= 1700, 1 = 1850, 2 = 2050. 2050 I think is a little too high and I will probably reduce to 1950.

b. What sort / size are your tail blades? Can make a big difference. Again, DWS6 said he uses the 95mm Radix, like most of us !

c. Gain % is an arbitrary no. to that gyro and the overall heli set-up. You've been given many examples so go with what they have suggested

I hope this helps and would be very keen to know how you go.

Good luck and all the best

- g

Vibe 90 & 50 WITH flybars (old skool), CY Rave, flying for many years, talent rating, absolute zero

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01-18-2009 05:57 AM  9 years agoPost 30
DWS6

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Newark,DE

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Well put Goose!

Mugen,
17% is really low in the menu. How is your tail setup mechanically? The 770 is very susceptible to proper setup. It differs from every other gyro on the market. I think this is why so many people have issues with them. MAKE SURE YOU SET BLADE PITCH TO HOVER IN RATE MODE!
17% is in rate mode anyway so the inverse for Heading hold will be some value over 50 probably around 67%.

If you get hunting with very low gain or the tail feels really soft and wont lock then the ball on your horn needs to come in, the limit turned up and then add more gain.

good luck

Dave Williams
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01-18-2009 08:11 AM  9 years agoPost 31
AaronJohnson

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mason,MI

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Goose,

Just to clarify I actually moved my ball in from 17mm TO 14mm on the tail servo horn because I was having to reduce the gain lower then I should have to eliminate tail wag. I needed less "speed" and more "resolution". My tail setup is working fine right now with a setting of "60" in the DX7's gyro menu. I still may need to go in further with the ball, more testing will tell.
If you drop your ATV's the gyro now thinks that it has less mechanicl travel to work with even though this is incorrect.
I RESPECTFULLY disagree.

WHEN IN HH ONLY,

The ATV's have nothing at all to do with the mechanical travel of the tail. The ATV sets the piro rate for the gyro. The gyro knows its MECHANICAL endpoints by where you set the limiter pot at. The gyro will do all that it can to hold the tail and maintain constant piro rates with out going past that mechanical limit. The ATV's also dont directly affect how far the tail slider will move, rather they tell the gyro the max piro rate. Then the gyro will use as much or little of the travel that it needs (within the mechanical endpoints set by the limiter pot) to maintain a constant piro rate and hold the tail. We will just say a rate is viewed in like "x" degrees per second. When any gyro is in heading hold it views the ATV's differently then when it is in rate mode. The dual rate is actually just a % of the total ATV However, The gyro DOES NOT know that it has 150% of rate available to it when the dual rate is set to 80%. The gyro will see 80%. We are sending one signal to the gyro, it can not know that it has a max ATV of 150% when we have the dual rate set to 80%. With that said, If you have your dual rate at say 80% that is our max piro rate, now if you are in FFF and try to piro the tail ahead of the heli, that gyro will move the tail slider as far as it needs (with out going past where you set the limiter pot) to maintain your requested piro rate input that you are giving it. Having the ATV's set at 150% is just personal preference. With your ATV set to 150% you may have to set your D/R to say 40% to get a certain piro rate. Now with mine set at 105%, I can set my dual rate at say 80% and get that same piro rate that you are getting at 40%. Setting the ATV's and D/R's in heading hold is just a personal preference. The only way to change the speed or resolution on the tail system is by mechanically changing the linkage.

Lastly, In my expirience I feel that it is neccesary to set the G7703D up for no drift in hover in rate mode even though the manual doesnt say to. Many people have struggled to get the piro rates equal and the stops even by messing with the ATV's and they didnt set it up for "no drift" in rate mode. I set mine up in rate mode for no drift and I have dead even piro rates and "stops" both directions with the same ATV for left and right.

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01-18-2009 08:42 AM  9 years agoPost 32
Goose(is dead...)

rrApprentice

UK

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No drama's !
Absolutely no drama's onquick96,

I'm all for disagreement as I never want to post incorrect info / advice when we're all trying to help someone out witha problem.

As noted, I have only set and fine-trimmed the Solid-G. My head hurts! as you have covered so much info in your post. I will go through your post with my heli and test everything that we both said. That's an easy thing to do.

But just quickly, as I haven't needed to set up a gyro for a little while and, we maybe using different brand or even model Tx's that interact with the Gyro firmware in a different way, maybe you could do the same test?

The hypothetical is:

ATV max = 150%
DR max = 100%

DR's are a % of ATV's. So at full for both we see 150% travel both ways.

a.If you half your ATV's to 75% (and keep DR's at 100%) we see 75% travel both ways.
b.If you half your DR's to 50% (and keep ATV's at 150%) we also see 75% travel both ways.

The difference I'm now trying to prove / disprove is the following:

In scenario A, full left rudder will give you 75% travel and will only allow the gyro to give the servo 75% travel.

In scenario B, full left rudder will give you 75% travel but will allow the gyro to use 150% travel either way.

It would actually be really good if a few guys did this 5 min test. I think we'll find there is alot of difference in different Brand combo's.

cheers

cheers Onquick

-g

Vibe 90 & 50 WITH flybars (old skool), CY Rave, flying for many years, talent rating, absolute zero

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01-18-2009 03:20 PM  9 years agoPost 33
AaronJohnson

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mason,MI

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Well remember to fly it with each setting that you are going to change. Remember, ATV has nothing to do with the actual "throw" of the tail pitch slider. We are simply telling the gyro how fast we want to piro, the gyro will do whatever it needs to witht the tail slider to get that piro rate or hold the tail. (with in our endpoints)

When you are playing around try this its kinda neat. Everyone knows how to tell if your gyro is in HH right? Of course, you turn on the radio and the gyro centers it self, you give an stick input, release the stick, and the servo will not recenter. Also, when in heading hold, If say your pitch slider is in the full left position and you give a slight right stick input, that pitch slider will slowly move all the way to the right mechanical extreme. This is why you will not be able to see a physical throw difference of the tail rotor on the ground. No matter what the ATV is set at, you will still be able to get the tail slider to go to the full mechanical extreme on the ground. Now yes, I somewhat agree that if you go from 150% to say 25%, your tail pitch slider is not going to have to move as far to achieve that slower piro rate but we are not directly controling how far the slider moves. More or less indirectly. And we cant see that change on the ground when in HH. So try it on the ground, 150% and 25%, give full stick inputs and you will see that the servo still goes to the same mechanical endpoint. However if you fly it like that you will obviously see a huge diference in piro speeds from 25% to 150%.

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01-18-2009 03:42 PM  9 years agoPost 34
DWS6

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Agreed, this test will not be seen on the bench.

I can tell you from experience though when trying to work out a tail issue on my 770 that you probably will not see a flight difference either. I did not under normal flight charicteristics. Whether I put the atv at 150 and lowered the d/r as the manual states. Or set it up like a 401 with d/r at 100% and lowered the atv for piro rate. Both setups flew pretty much the same under basic manuevers. Where the recommeded setup excells is in extreme heavy load maneuvers when the tail is loaded, the 150atv provides higher resolution there for faster reaction time. It did hold the tail a little better.

Dave Williams
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01-19-2009 12:20 AM  9 years agoPost 35
AaronJohnson

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mason,MI

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The only way to change the speed or resolution on the tail system is by mechanically changing the linkage.
This is true.

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01-19-2009 12:59 AM  9 years agoPost 36
DWS6

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The only way to change the speed or resolution on the tail system is by mechanically changing the linkage.
This is true.
Speed yes, resolution no.

From an article on little rotors with the exception that Spectrum is now using 2048.
You want to make sure that you have equal amounts of ATV. The larger the amount of ATV means you’re using more of the servo’s resolution (in most cases a servo has 1024 available positions, on a 14MZ, that is 2048 positions). If you have a low ATV value then you’re not using as much of the servo resolution as you could, this will mean the helicopter could be jumpy.

I prefer to use larger ATV settings which can give the heli a more settled feeling and allows you to use a much larger percent of the total servo resolution. You may as well use the full capacity of the system you paid for!

Why is it important to have equal travel on both sides, and why should those values be large???

The gyro wants to know how far it can move the servo to the left and right to make the appropriate compensations. It’s important that these values be equal so the gyro gets a linear progression when it tells the servo to move.

Remember earlier in this article I talked about servo resolution and why you should have your ATV’s set to a relatively high value (ie about 100%)? Well the same goes for the tail servos, the gyro is a finely tuned instrument capable of making minute adjustments to keep the tail steady. If you have cut down the amount of servo resolution by having a low limit value (ie 80% for gyros), then you’re making life harder for the gyro than if you had that value at 120% which gives the tail servo more ‘room to move’.

Dave Williams
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01-19-2009 01:14 AM  9 years agoPost 37
AaronJohnson

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mason,MI

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YES resolution and speed. Just think about it for a minute. If you move the ball in on the servo horn and the servo moves 10 degree, you have a slower response time but in turn you have a higher resolution. You CAN NOT change one with out affecting the other!

The quote that you included IS TRUE, FOR RATE MODE ONLY!!! NOT for HH. The ATV's dont change the limit of the tail rotor servo, the pot on the gyro does that. Also that quote is true for the cyclic servos as well.

AGAIN, ATV's have zero effect on how far the tail servo can move to hold the tail when in HH MODE!!!!

The resolution that the radio transmits effects everything, it is really irrelevant to our discussion about the gyro, unless of course you were comparing how the gyro was with 1024 VS 2048.

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01-19-2009 01:25 AM  9 years agoPost 38
DWS6

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AGAIN, ATV's have zero effect on how far the tail servo can move to hold the tail when in HH MODE!!!!
It effects HH as well, If you set the the ATV for 100% you will get X for a piro rate, let say it is 600deg/s. If you increase your ATV, do you not get a faster piro rate? How do you think that happens? It is because the ATV does control the overall throw of the servo/tail blade pitch UP TOO the limit set by the pot.
Your servo is only outputing tail pitch based on the ATV's value in HH.

What is seen on the bench and in the air are two different things.

Dave Williams
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01-19-2009 01:27 AM  9 years agoPost 39
Goose(is dead...)

rrApprentice

UK

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Crazy !
I did a quick test,

The Solid G did what I thought it would do.

And the 611 told me to 'piss off and get it right " !!

Now, I'm absolutely curious so will have extensive testing on the weekend.

The more pilots the better
cheers.

Vibe 90 & 50 WITH flybars (old skool), CY Rave, flying for many years, talent rating, absolute zero

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01-19-2009 02:28 AM  9 years agoPost 40
AaronJohnson

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mason,MI

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What is seen on the bench and in the air are two different things
I understand this but the ATV are just telling the gyro a piro rate. The gyro will do whatever it must to achieve that desired piro rate. So yes, with a higher piro rate, the gyro will have to use more tail input. This is why do matter what the ATV is, the tail will still go all the to the endpoints on the ground. When you push the stick a little bit, the servo will keep adding tail pitch because the gyro can tell that it is not piroetting. Now try this, Put the gyro in rate mode and see that the ATV will actually change the physical throw directly and is the same on the ground and in the air.

So I agree that the ATV INDIRECTLY controls how much general throw the tail will move due to a higher piro rate will require more tail pitch. But the ATV will not affect the holding power or resolution.

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