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09-15-2008 11:03 PM  12 years ago
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Rbush

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Bat 50 Carbon Pro
After a few years of searching, I finally found the heli for me. It was the Compass Knight 50 Pro. She was an all alloy heli, looked fantastic and flew brilliantly !!

Unfortunately, a sports heli is not what the modern pilot wanted, it's all 3D or nothing these days. So Compass stopped making the Pro, and replaced it with the Knight 3D as their top machine I'm not a 3D flyer, I like hard and fast acrobatics, so a full on 3D model was not what I was wanting.

I ended up going back to a Raptor 50's with Kasama heads, and some other models I would rather forget!

In my never ending search for a Knight Pro replacement, I took a closer look at the QWW Bat 50 Carbon pro. On paper, the Bat Pro was exactly the same as the Knight Pro, all alloy and carbon, glass canopy 3D capable and a reasonable weight (8lb 4oz). A few posts and E-mail's later a deal was struck with Irwin. A 40% discount in return for a Bat Pro and full review.

A week later I got my box. Now this heli kit is not cheap. The kit costs $600(£300) + $100(£50) to ship and if you get caught for import tax in the UK at about 25% you will add about another £85 to the price. So total price is about £435. That's a lot of money for a 50, not the most expensive, but getting there. The top 3 are considered to be :-

Vibe 50 at £390
Knight 50 3D at £265
Align 600N Pro at £325.

All the above considered you would expect to have a well packed kit in a nice box. I know you don't fly the box but it makes you feel good seeing your nice new expensive model well presented. The other top 3 models listed above come in nice boxes and are cheaper. Unfortunately the packing for the Bat Pro is disappointing to say the least

Although the hardware is quite nicely packaged into plastic bags (sort of) everything is then dumped into one small box in a dismissive uncaring sort of way.

The next thing to hit you is the sticker sheet, OH dear. To put it bluntly, they are nasty, unimaginative, offensive and crass, even as a bloke I say this. They are also printed badly and the colours are dingy.

"Nothing beats a quickie" and "Quick Crew", I mean, come on! Would you expect to see that sort of thing in a Hirobo kit? or any other main stream heli manufacturer!

Thankfully, it gets better from this point on

The canopy is very good, easily as good as any other kit I've had, better in some cases. Its well moulded, crisp and light. The window is well defined with a sharp black edge. The only down side, is that it is a little large for a 50. I think QWW use the same canopy for their larger 90's and gasser??

Going through the plastic bags of parts I certainly got the impression of quality. To be honest, I thought the finish of all the metal parts was some of the best I've ever seen! I was quite surprised to see several nicely anodised parts in one bag. This seems like a bad idea to me. QWW have put a lot of effort into getting the anodising perfect, and then lumps them into one bag where they could get scratched (none of mine were though). The carbon was also very good, well cut out, no chips, no delaminating, no scratches and no rough edges.

Unfortunately, I also got the impression this model was not going to hit the 8lb 4oz advertised weight. Each and every part seemed just that little bit heavier than they should be. There also seemed to be lots of carbon and lots of metal. All these extra bits hinted at over design?

There are lots of nice features in this kit however, most of which would normally be up-grades for other brands, even the higher spec one's. It was nice to see a 4mm stainless flybar,
25gram paddles for agility,
Fantastic 8mm feathering spindle,
Replacable swash bearing ability,
Very nicely shaped fan blades, not the normal straight flat profile,
Very attractive tail case,
Nice stiff tail blades,
Nice counter gear assembly with lovely alloy pullies,
Full alloy tail pitch slider,
Machined delrin gears,
Nice screw box with reasonably organised bolts and fixings,
All bearings were well greased.

There are vents in the top of the clutch bell that have venting slots machined into the top of it that are angled in an attempt to 'scoop' air into the clutch for extra cooling, nice idea. The clutch itself also has slots at the end of the shoes rather than just holes. This will give the clutch a longer life due to the larger flexing area.

The things I saw that I did not like so much were:-

No locking slots in the boom ends,
The carbon tail rods needed to be cut to length yourself,
Nasty old design fuel tank,
Very large and heavy motor mount,
The tail box is very heavy,
The vertical tail fin is a little large and full of drilled holes (8)
Horrible tail pitch rod holder.
Instructions on CD!!

I also found there was quite a bit of backlash in the counter shaft tail pulley and gear due to the fact that the drive pins are a sloppy fit. This may show itself in tail control, and will probably increase the wear rate on the pullies. If you allow these things to move, wear is increased dramatically. So a nice tight fit would have been better.

The only things I found that were missing in the kit by the time I got to the end of the build were the blade grip bolts, some bolts and spacer tubes for the tail and the carbon tail rod end fixings. That didn't hold me up as I had some bolts and I made the rod ends

I'm not going to outline the build step by step as it's all been done before, several times ! The instructions are on the QWW website for all to see anyway.

This leads me onto my second BIGGEST gripe. The kit comes with the instructions on a CD, but for the life of me, I couldn't find the Bat 50 on it. I had to go to the QWW web site and download the instructions onto my desktop. In order to save on expensive computer ink I had to have my computer on all day during the build, humming away annoyingly Anyway, once you have the instructions up, they are very good, nice and clear and easy to follow.

Anyway, the build gets underway very well, everything fits as it should and has a good quality feel about it. I was quite impressed. I had no problems until I went to fit the engine. The engine needs silly carbon spacers added to the sides of the engine mount because the mount is not wide enough! Why not just make the engine mount the right size, or design the lower frames thinner? I found my spacers to be .030" too thin overall. I had to CA a piece of G10 onto the side of each spacer and machine it down .015" Therefore adding 0.015" to the overall thickness of each piece.

Then came the next pain in the ass. Not only do you have to mess about with these two bits of carbon, you also have to use two more on the outside that act as one large washer, why, what's the point?

The other thing I didn't get, was why so much 'stuff' around the fuel tank. It's caged in like an animal. Is it alive, is it wanting to brake free and rip your throat out? I think this is a massive over design and a big factor in the weight issue. Then there's the fuel tank. I HATE this bung and tube 'plank' (Century Hawk) type tank. It went out with the Ark, come on QWW, get yourself a nice fully moulded tank. It was nice that there are stainless tubes. I know their hard as hell to bend, but they'll never rot like brass.

Having sorted the tank, this shows up another nice feature of the Bat, the gyro mounting point. We all know the gyro is best placed as close to the main shaft as you can get it. On this machine, it's basically underneath in a nice little hole I didn't use it though, because I like to be able to get to the settings easily if I need to later on.

The build goes nicely again until you get to the main gears. I found there to be 0.3mm (almost 0.012" ) run out on the tail drive gear, This was the best I could get it without major hassle. I think the problem is the silly carbon rings. Why not just make the lower hub one piece? This will remove the need for the rings and about 8mm of free thread within the rings. The free thread will only induce movement.

The sharp eyed amongst you will see the teeth on the gear have a little swarf needing to be cleaned off. This is because When the gears and auto hub are assembled (correctly!) they are very close in the frames. It does all fit, but it was too close for me. I found by removing 0.040" from the top of the main gear and 0.040" from the bottom of the tail gear, things were perfect and very free running, with a nice working clearance.
Before

Cutting off 0.040"

after with some nice working clearance

There is still plenty of meat left on the gears and even after this skimming, the gears are thicker than other kits gears

Then I moved onto the head. The only problem I had there was the 'top hat' spacers for the flybar 'see-saw' were too long. This showed itself up in 0.024" of side to side play. I thought the 'top hats' may have to be fitted with the flange inside, but the instructions does show it on the outside. I skimmed of 0.011" from the ends. This gave me 0.002" of side play, nice

I'm sure that the instructions are wrong on the direction of the thrust races in the grips as well? It says to fit the smaller hole closest to the main shaft. As far as I can work out, the largest goes closest to the shaft so it has clearance to rotate as the outer hole is loaded and does not turn? I don't think I'm wrong here. I fitted mine with the large hole inside, seems fine?

On to the tail. Everything is very nicely made on the tail. I had to skim off 0.010" from the little alloy tubes that hold the belt pullies, as they just would not fit into the tail box. The only thing I found was that I was missing two fine bolts to hold the tail pitch slider bracket. I also seemed to be missing a spacer tube to hold off the pitch slider arm, and there were no bolts or spacers to fit to the tail grips. I had all these parts in my pit boxes, so no problem for me. When all the bolts were found and fitted, the tail was fantastically smooth, one of the best with plenty of pitch travel.

The vertical tail fin was a mystery? why does it have 8 holes?? Some drilled and some moulded in. I ended up fitting two longer bolts into the tail case and used these to fix the tail fin as well, just like a Raptor.

And then onto my BIGGEST hate of all !! The links and rods !!!

When I first opened the kit up, I thought "OH good, Rocket City/Q UK links" But no! They look like Rocket City/Q UK links, but Rocket City/Q UK links don't split up the middle when you try and thread them on! I split a good three quarters of the supplied links, some were even split before trying to thread them. I was hopping mad after 3 hours of finding 'other' links in my spares box because these links were splitting. I ended up using mostly Q UK links and some Thunder Tiger ones. Then there's the rods !! two were too long by 10mm or so and the short ones on the mixing levers were 2mm too long. In itself, there is no real problem if you know all this before hand. Just cut some rods down and buy some new Q UK links ready. But try doing that on a Sunday afternoon and getting the knowledge the hard way!!!

Anyway, that's about it really. On the whole, it went together fairly well with the exception of a few small tweaks. The setting up was just like any other CCPM heli.

I had to add an extra 6oz in the nose of the canopy to offset the tail, and the total dry weight came out to 9lb 11oz. I'm sure the total weight is high because all the alloy used seems a lot heavier than other brands, and the whole thing is way over engineered. But as we all know by now, it is strong !!!

Test hovering went VERY well. There was no vibration and the tracking was perfect. I set my heads up by working on one side first, and then copying the rod lengths over to the other side.

Then check the pitch on both blades again. A good head always drops on '0' both sides. This QWW head did exactly that

All the above reveiw is only my opinion.
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09-16-2008 12:30 AM  12 years ago
knightman

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I have been watching the other threads with interest. A nice review of the the kit with some good and bad points highlighted. I think that this kit is for a sesasoned heli builder as some of the problems highlighted are out of reach for the average heli builder. I suppose that the mods that RBush has made could be successfully done with files and sandpaper etc but not to a high standard as if it were machined.
Hope that Quick World Wide will investigate the possible issues that RBush has found and take action to hopefully resolve any problems.
I wait with anticipation for the review of the next flight (IF HE DOESN'T CRASH IT AGAIN !!! ) and some video of the flight.
Watch out here I come!!!!
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09-16-2008 01:09 AM  12 years ago
baddynergy

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RBUSH, GREAT write up. One of the most thorough and concise I have ever seen. Well done.**Unattended children will be givin a shot of espresso and a puppy**
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09-16-2008 01:18 AM  12 years ago
d-bledsoe

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Kirkland WA

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Very nice detailed review.Derek Bledsoe
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09-16-2008 01:24 AM  12 years ago
ZXXflyer

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stone mountain, georgia, US

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Nice write up... I find it to be similar to my build.

I am currently trying to resolve the problem with the out-of-round main gears and their clearance in the frames...

Then I also have to order a bunch of end links because of the same problem you have with yours.... they thread on crooked and often split.

I'm waiting on the servos, battery pack, and gyro in the mail.
Believer in Weston motors!
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09-16-2008 01:50 AM  12 years ago
rsalazar

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Rob, thanks very much for this very detail review
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09-16-2008 01:32 PM  12 years ago
shuttlepilot

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Mullins, South Carolina

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Good constructive review rbush. You are right, the heli is probably a little over-engineered. I also had the issue with making sure that the washout did not drop out of the pins with my older version of the frames which had a longer mainshaft on my gasser. The new version gasser has a shorter mainshaft and getting +10 and -10 out of it doesn't let this happen (on mine). I had spit a piece of automotive fuel line and put it below my swash on the shaft to keep everything on the pins until I turned my equipment on to keep me from doing the very same thing(on the old version) I actually flew the thing with it on there one day and could not figure out how I didn't have any negative pitch I then painted it bright orange to remember.

Thanks for taking the time, and hopefully the new parts will get things more balance for you.
Gas is Great
Camper Fuel is Better!!
QWW Helis
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09-16-2008 09:51 PM  12 years ago
raptorheli2

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rip off britain and no changing it

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excellent review rob. look forward to the flying one.

just one thing, you said you lost elevator. you think maybe you lost/broke a link?

cheers

www.waterfoothelis.com
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09-16-2008 09:52 PM  12 years ago
Stu.

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Rbush,

Do you think that maybe the link splitting could have caused the crash and the stripping of the gears was possibly conincidental?

Ive had 9252's and they really arent that fragile.

I think also while this has some nice features the main issues are the weight as an advertised 3D heli, the link issue and the requirement for a lathe

Do you think the price point in comparison to some other kits is possibly a little prohibitive? Especially in comparison to the Vibe 50

In the end the review is very unbiased and most people can take their own optinons from it. Hwoever the build you describe is very similar to the build i had on 2 QWW's i had about 4 years ago

Stu
www.waterfoothelis.com
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09-16-2008 10:25 PM  12 years ago
Droid

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Bushy OMFG what have you done........

Thought you were gonna stick with a raptor, are you beginning to wish you did yet......
Quotes may have been changed for my own amusement
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09-16-2008 11:03 PM  12 years ago
Stu.

rrVeteran - Abrakebabra Kebab shop MyPosts All  Forum  Topic

and

DO you think there are any copyright issues here? I thought i recognised her from neighbours!

Here's her website

http://www.emmaharrison.com/

Stu
www.waterfoothelis.com
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09-16-2008 11:27 PM  12 years ago
ZXXflyer

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stone mountain, georgia, US

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Quote Chef-

you, and me......and her. Simeltaneous loving baby!
Believer in Weston motors!
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09-16-2008 11:46 PM  12 years ago
Rbush

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EDIT......
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09-17-2008 12:00 AM  12 years ago
Stu.

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You would have thought that constructive criticism would have been welcome.

Nature of the beast unfortunately. They are their own worst enemies.

What was expected? a glowing review? Im pretty sure he asked for an unbiased view.

every kit has issues, he just doesnt like the fact there was any.

Id say your money is gone and more than likely no more parts!

Stu

PS is a lathe in the list of required build tools?
www.waterfoothelis.com
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09-17-2008 12:01 AM  12 years ago
raptorheli2

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rip off britain and no changing it

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WOW, i'm sorry to hear that rob.

i have doubts your getting your money back mate. if it was me i'd sell it on, get some of your money back and post what he said.

post closing in 5,4,3............

cheers

www.waterfoothelis.com
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09-17-2008 12:06 AM  12 years ago
Rbush

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EDIT......
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09-17-2008 12:07 AM  12 years ago
d-bledsoe

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Rbush Unfortuantly this is exactly what happened to me as well. No matter what you do or say Irwin/QWW is right, you are wrong and there is no point in fighting it.

I think your review was incredibly honest and not a hint of negativity and really what you'd probly see in any of the RC mags out there. It was unbiased, honest and to the point. Pointed out the good, and the bad and you didn't let your feelings dictate your review.

I am truely sorry to see you encounter the same problems i went through, and i hope irwin wakes up an realizes what honest report you gave.

Just remember, it is a open forum and you can say what ever you want the only one that can stop you here is mark.
Derek Bledsoe
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09-17-2008 12:08 AM  12 years ago
raptorheli2

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rip off britain and no changing it

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rob, i feel you getting your money back is more you being hopeful than realistic. i hope i'm wrong but past readings in here have proven otherwise.

cheers

www.waterfoothelis.com
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09-17-2008 12:09 AM  12 years ago
Stu.

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I'm sure he will now offer my money back publicly
If they are reputable then i would say so.

That remains to be seen, i would take note Irwin.

Please come back with something contructive..

Stu
www.waterfoothelis.com
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09-17-2008 02:13 AM  12 years ago
Eury

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Dover NH USA

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Why would the review make anyone angry? I thought you made it sound like a very nice heli, albeit one with some tolerance and packing issues. It's really unfortunate, Irwin has always been very good and fair with me, although I choose to fly other helis than the ones QWW produces, my experiences with the crew at QWW (not the field reps) are such that I would consider them in the future.

Also, I would say that you could always file a dispute with your credit card company if the refund doesn't come through as promised. You've got the evidence to back up your side of the dispute.
Nick Crego

Citizen #0168
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