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08-24-2008 08:36 AM  12 years ago
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pgkevet

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Preddie rebuild
After my servo plug falling out incident it's been a tedious wait for parts. They were finally supposed to all be here so I started the rebuild yesterday..

First almost disaster was when i discovered I'd missed some damage on the flybar see-saw. I was able to press the bent endplates straigt ina metal working vice and they came out so nicely flat that there was not rocking on a flat surface.

Then I discovered a missing bearing - frustrating - but checking my manuals it is the same size as the outer bearing in a 450 blade grip.. and I had an old one with good bearing inside.

Of course the fan was out of true again .. the joys of dialing it as close as possible - again. It's never going to be as close as I'd like.

Then I thought it was wise to take the oportunity to reverse the torrington. Mistake! Or a mistake in how I went about it. I tried to press it out using a socket against a piece of timber with a hole in. - Well i failed to press it out - short of getting a pry bar under the vice grips my 220lbs mass wasn't enough.

OK so perhaps I should have cooked it first. Worse was the fact that one part of the timber must have been softer and one clutch sole was now a tad proud.

So I've spent a sad last hour carefully presing that level and can report that I can't feel any 'lip' when i run a finger over it now.

I'm not gonna try that again without a spare clutch in hand against a metal block with a heat gun

Next Problem was that the lower front carbon parts weren't for a predator.. must be some other Century Heli. Again that was just nuisance because with parts shortages I had also ordered the metal ones elsewhere as a backup.. so they are in for the moment..

..Looks like my usual good Heli Hassles are still with me

..perhaps I should change my name to 'Lucky'

..If it carries on raining like this I'll have plenty of time for the rebuild
pgk
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08-25-2008 03:32 AM  12 years ago
jschenck

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i discovered I'd missed some damage on the flybar see-saw.
Exact same thing with mine - I didn't notice it until I was getting ready to pull the head off. I then noticed the flybar cage was at about 60 deg. to the main grips Dang thing of it is the flybar was hardly bent. I don't think it was hit in the crash, just the momentum of the bar+paddles coming to a sudden halt bent the inner carrier end plates. Really mangled them too.

I think that when I flipped the bearing over on my clutch I used Ace's suggestion of a long bolt through a couple of carefully selected sockets
(8mm and 12mm ??) to make a press. put some washers and a nut on the entire assembly and tighten it down to push the bearing out. No heat required.

EDIT:
Next Problem was that the lower front carbon parts weren't for a predator.. must be some other Century Heli.
I wonder if they sent you Pred. Nitro frame parts.
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08-25-2008 04:40 AM  12 years ago
turbogti

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St. Andrew, Jamaica

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I took this from my thread when i was taking out my torrington a few days ago. Don't heat it, i had planned on doing that but based on my search i found that it will come out.
I followed the wood block technique, i used an old bent main shaft to get my torrongton out, the 10mm main shaft fits perfectly, after i few wallops with a hammer the torrington came right out.

I hope this helps..

EDIT: the reason why it took so long is that silly me wasn't using a hammer to hit the main shaft, i was using an old vice grip, once i switched to the hammer things started moving.

Taken from Right here
I'm trying to reverse the torrington Bearing, i'm following asong26 advice that i found below.... So far No Go, but its only been 30 mins i'll keep trying...

Quote from Asong26 taken from HERE
Quote
Here's what you do, and it's very easy....

Place the clutch on top of a either a vise, or couple of wood blocks. Space the vise grips, or the wood blocks so that the clutch would sit on top of them, and you can see the from the top that clutch's center hole is completely cleared without obstruction. Be sure to orient the clutch so that the clutch slits are not running parallel with the blocks or with the vise grip openings, you want the clutch slits to be perpendicular to the vise or the wooden blocks to avoid clutch from breaking....[I]

Then find a right sized socket wrench adapter that will barely fit in the center hole of the cluch, that does not go through the torrington bearing. Gently tap the socket adapter onto the tip of the torrington bearing with a hammer, or something equivalent until it pops out and drops to the bottom. If you bang too hard, you will risk breaking the clutch, so do it slow and take your time.
****Predator Gasser SE - She's Ready to rumble ***
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08-25-2008 05:22 AM  12 years ago
Eury

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I've dumped 3 Predators, and every time that plate on the flybar carrier was bent. After the second one, I just started keeping spares.Nick Crego

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08-25-2008 07:21 AM  12 years ago
pgkevet

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Wales

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Next Problem:

I've given up with the torrington for the moment. If vice pressing and my rubber hammer fail then I'm not doing any more without a spare clutch.

Mating top and bottom:

When I built the thing I had to rasp some of the middle back frame parts to lower the way it sits on the fan shroud to align the clutch-hub. And this time it offers-up wanting to be lowered further.

I can't do that without risking weakening those part and don't fancy trying to trim the fan shroud base at the correct angle neatly enough.

I have a feeling that I might end up vertically slotting some of the frame holes and I didnl want to take it all aprt that much. So before doing that I plan on loosening off all frame screws (apart from the power train) to maximise play and work from the cutch out - it might work.

A desperate solution might be to shim the front of the engine on baseplate..

I had a delay in the rebuild after learning I shouldn't loop my 600 in a squall that blows it over your head while it's spinning out 'cos the tail can't hold it...But that's fixed now. Only original parts now are the frame sides, main shaft and belt and a few screws. And one frame is repaired...Century could learn something about main shafts from that!
pgk
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08-25-2008 10:06 PM  12 years ago
AceBird

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I've given up with the torrington for the moment. If vice pressing and my rubber hammer fail then I'm not doing any more without a spare clutch.
I hate to be the bearer of bad news but at this point I would declare your clutch
toast. That goes for the bearing also but you are not really going to use it anyway. I foresee problems down the road with more Century bashing because of your error.

I hope you have learned from your mistake. Never try to press against wood unless it is hard wood with a very large area in contact. This is one case where you don’t want to take advice from a newbie. I realize I myself am a newbie, but only when it comes to flying helicopters. There is a huge difference between building and flying.
Century could learn something about main shafts from that!
Maybe you will get your wish. The big kahoonta is on its way with a 12mm mast. I got a feeling that people are not going to like the price though. One thing to keep in mind about a crash, the energy of impact is determined by speed and mass. Making one part stronger doesn’t change that energy. It will just manifest the damage to other weaker parts. The 10mm mast is pretty cheap and doesn’t direct damage to other parts in a crash for the most part.
Ace
What could be more fun?
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08-25-2008 10:44 PM  12 years ago
pgkevet

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I hate to be the bearer of bad news but at this point I would declare your clutch
toast. That goes for the bearing also but you are not really going to use it anyway.
. I foresee problems down the road with more Century bashing because of your error

I'm fully aware that the clutch may not be ideal.. but until a replacement then it's going to get tried.. and the degree of distorsion was about 1 mm and is now as perfct as finger-feel can detect. Incidentally it dialed in within tolerance.
I foresee problems down the road with more Century bashing because of your error
Not sure what you mean here.

Mating the halves

The solution here was to use the ESS and then tighten/loosen the screws on that until the clutch ran in the hub without significant binding and then torque up the rest of the frame screws checking every few.. feels quite good right now...

..just a couple of spacers to finish putting in and then swap boom/torque and refix the tail.. skids and make up new canopy.. and the set-up of course
pgk
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08-26-2008 02:07 AM  12 years ago
jschenck

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Ace man, don't be condescending, it's not cool and serves only to discredit yourself. Mr. pgk has amply demonstrated a mechanical aptitude and intuition many don't poses (and never will).
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08-26-2008 08:25 AM  12 years ago
pgkevet

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Maybe you will get your wish. The big kahoonta is on its way with a 12mm mast. I got a feeling that people are not going to like the price though. One thing to keep in mind about a crash, the energy of impact is determined by speed and mass. Making one part stronger doesn’t change that energy. It will just manifest the damage to other weaker parts. The 10mm mast is pretty cheap and doesn’t direct damage to other parts in a crash for the most part.
Design evolves through experience of it's functional use. Yes, you're right re energy = mass x velocity but wrong that damage must manifest in weaker parts. Yes it will manifest in those parts IF design doesn't take that effect under consideration. You CAN design with allowance for damage limitaion by building in break-out points OR you can design with the intention of absorbing and redistributing that energy in a machine friendly way.

My light 600E not only has a stronger main-shaft but that mainshaft is supported by three bearings with one cheap nylon gear in the main power train.

In any heli crash there are two energy sources.. the rotational energy of the blades and the direction of the pod impact. Rotational energy will inevitably bring blades into contact with the ground and the main power train - so good design accepts and sacrifices that without energy feeding elsewhere. Essentially lose the blades and main gear and preserve the rest.

If the shaft deforms then you get massive vibration and unequal forces against fewer bearings and focus your energy into a narrower cone. Agree?

Energy of actual impact requires design options of either a crumple zone or in our case adequate frame support to absorb such impacts with sacrifice of boom (where the mechanical leverage makes it unreasonable to absorb) and possibly the skids where their energy absorption needs to be limited to control bounce.

I'm looking forwards to this new bird. As far as cost is concerned then Century has two choices.. price it for a very limited commercial (AP) market and a few die-hards or Price it competatively with current fashion and create a new niche. I suggest they will chose the low volume conservative first option intead of the flambouyant entreprenuerial route (shame)
pgk
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08-26-2008 02:10 PM  12 years ago
jschenck

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As far as cost is concerned then Century has two choices.. price it for a very limited commercial (AP) market and a few die-hards or Price it competitively with current fashion and create a new niche. I suggest they will chose the low volume conservative first option instead of the flamboyant entrepreneurial route (shame)
Agreed, that would be a bad move on Cenury's part. There are already many AP & scale rigs being sold to a small crowd (Bergen, Vario, JR, etc.) but only two real volume players in the acrobatic/sport gasser category. Century's reputation is producing the lesser expensive of these two options but aside from some crash cost parts that cost differential is already pretty minimal.

The real opportunity is for Thunder Tiger or Align to come in here and clean house and most of the engineering work has already been done by enthusiasts.
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08-26-2008 02:29 PM  12 years ago
Eury

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The real opportunity is for Thunder Tiger or Align to come in here and clean house and most of the engineering work has already been done by enthusiasts.
100% agreed. One of those 2 would kill in this market. The gassers out there are all niche players and not widely marketed. I've always thought a Raptor 90 gasser would be great, but I'm not willing to roll my own or buy a conversion from a shady outfit. I just picked up a R90 3d (it's the 4th or 5th R60-90 that I've owned), and I'm always amazed that no matter what else I fly, the R90 just feels "right". It's solid, tracks beautifully, is responsive, stable, simple, inexpensive and tough. Just a great airframe. If TT released a gas version of it, my Spectra would be sold the next day.
Nick Crego

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08-26-2008 03:30 PM  12 years ago
pgkevet

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Once again don;t forget the QWW offering ..offering what looks like a simple and robust frame approach but perhaps not enough promotion where it counts?

Incidentally anyone know why they went the EI route with their bigger gasser? If my limited EI knowledge is correct then that means another power pack which detracts (for me) from the simplicity of the gasser. And Raja has proven the ideal of every heli having it's own generator..such bits should be in at the design concept..

I flew 6-7 tanks today.. lugging the wheelie toolkit proved useful.. it had my tx , tank of fuel, thermos and pasties and danish but admit I got a hex key out to check the muffler (which was tight)

Hopefully someone got a vid... not for my flying 'skills' but the engine note..if so I'll load later for opinions
pgk
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08-26-2008 04:01 PM  12 years ago
Eury

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I wanted to go the Qww route on the gasser. I even did a build review of the 20cc. No thanks, I'd rather pay 1200 for a Spectra than get one of those for free. The new one has better frame geometry, but didn't address the real weakness, which is the drivetrain. Disappointing, it's a great concept let down by execution and details.Nick Crego

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08-26-2008 05:32 PM  12 years ago
shuttlepilot

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I went the QWW route on the gasser over 90 flight hours ago and have never looked back.
I'd rather pay 1200 for a Spectra than get one of those for free.
The guy that recieved that heli after you stated that there were some "build issues" with the previous builder.(you)
didn't address the real weakness, which is the drivetrain
What issues? Never had an issue with mine and the 26cc is IDENTICAL to the 20cc except for frame thickness and overall size.
great concept let down by execution
Builder execution

To each their own. But don't go bash something that you didn't even fly, or attempt to fly because of YOUR percieved issues with the machine.
Gas is Great
Camper Fuel is Better!!
QWW Helis
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08-26-2008 05:34 PM  12 years ago
Eury

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It's nice that you're finally admitting that you are a QWW rep. Here's a challenge for you, show me 5 people who are successfully flying the older 20cc design. Hell, show me a single person who is flying it as it comes out of the box.

The fact is, it has issues, you are the ONLY person in existence outside of the people who physically work at QWW who doesn't think so, and you don't even have one. You can blame it on me if you want, but until you can show me an example of that kit flying, it's obvious where the blame lies.

I'm betting you'd have no trouble putting a list together of people successfully flying stock Predators, Spectras, 1005s, Bergens, and Maxums.

Personally, I think QWW is a good company, their electric was very nice, and the customer service is second to none. But that 20cc gasser had problems that would require some reengineering to get it right. I'm sure it will get there, but it isn't there yet.

It's funny, I don't bash QWW, but you bash me. Like I said, good to see you finally admitting you're a QWW rep, it's been obvious for a LONG time.
Nick Crego

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08-26-2008 05:58 PM  12 years ago
AceBird

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Ace man, don't be condescending
Not trying to be condescending. I am trying to discourage the attitude of "it's good enough" or as they say: "bailing wire fixes". Things that are not right will destroy other things that weren't wrong to begin with. There is no such thing as "its good enough" when it comes to helicopters. Its either right or it isn't.
Ace
What could be more fun?
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08-26-2008 07:32 PM  12 years ago
shuttlepilot

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It's funny, I don't bash QWW, but you bash me.
I wanted to go the Qww route on the gasser. I even did a build review of the 20cc. No thanks, I'd rather pay 1200 for a Spectra than get one of those for free.
I'm glad to see that you know what bashing is...

I changed my tag line when I BECAME a rep back in June. I'm not by no means basing you. I just think your "know it all" attitude leaves a great deal to be desired. Along with the fact that a review consists of actually FLYING THE HELI BEING REVIEWED....but that is another story.

All of this really shows is that being a "RR Professor" has nothing to do with actual knowledge.
Gas is Great
Camper Fuel is Better!!
QWW Helis
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08-26-2008 08:19 PM  12 years ago
pgkevet

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..in between this debate.. anyone explain to me why QWW went EI and the pro's and con's??pgk
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08-26-2008 08:41 PM  12 years ago
Eury

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I'm glad to see that you know what bashing is..
Bashing is "This sucks, if you buy it, you suck, the company sucks, etc etc etc". I put MY opinion, and just like always, you chose to ignore any positives I might say, and attack me on faults that I find.
I changed my tag line when I BECAME a rep back in June.
Yeah. Sure. I'd love to have a poll to see how many people believe that BS.
I just think your "know it all" attitude leaves a great deal to be desired.
Once again, sure. I don't know it all, not even close, and I never professed to. I do know a hell of a lot more on the topic of something that I built than you do, when you haven't built one.
Along with the fact that a review consists of actually FLYING THE HELI BEING REVIEWED....but that is another story.
Apparently you didn't read that review. I built it, I never made a comment on the flying qualities.
All of this really shows is that being a "RR Professor" has nothing to do with actual knowledge.
Ohhhh!!!! So you're the one who thinks that a person's status on Runryder has something to do with knowledge and flying skill! I thought it was a joke about stupid newbies, I didn't realize anyone actually thought that.

And if you don't mind revisiting your earlier post,
The guy that recieved that heli after you stated that there were some "build issues" with the previous builder.(you)
didn't address the real weakness, which is the drivetrain
What issues? Never had an issue with mine and the 26cc is IDENTICAL to the 20cc except for frame thickness and overall size.
great concept let down by execution
Builder execution
You are a LIAR, Shuttlepilot. I sent Raul a PM, and he never said that. He had issues with the main drive gear assembly (which was assembled by QWW, not me - see my original thread.), and the head (which had binding, as I noted in my build of it). The only other thing that carried over from my build to his was the tail, which was perfect, and he actually tested on his own heli. Don't come out and lie about something when it's so easy to verify that you are a liar.

Finally, you can't have it both ways, SP. You can't post everywhere that I am inept and don't know what I'm talking about because I found problems with the original 20cc kit, and then post links to the review I did in Rotory for the Hard Core as an example of how good it is. I'm either inept, or I'm not. The owner of QWW must think that I know what I'm doing, or those kits wouldn't have been sent to me to build and write about, and the HardCore was sent a month after the 20cc build, so he must have seen some value in my build to ask for feedback on the electric.
Nick Crego

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08-26-2008 08:43 PM  12 years ago
Eury

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PGK, I'm sorry, I feel the need to defend myself when SP decides to attack me, which he does anytime I (or anyone else) says anything negative about a QWW product.

EI is nice, it makes the engine run smoother, and make a bit more power. The big thing is it takes about 11oz out of the engine, and once you add back in the EI unit and battery, you've still got about a half pound of weight savings. It's a great idea, most plane engines have gone that way, QWW is the first to do it in a heli, and they did a really nice job of it.
Nick Crego

Citizen #0168
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