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08-20-2008 12:35 PM  12 years ago
andrewt1971

rrNovice

Leeds, West Yorkshire, UK

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Yeah the E 90's make some incredible HP!
They do pull big watts, what i'd like to see is one of these motors pulling 6kw on a dyno and see how much of it makes it to the shaft.

Even at there best some motors only manage 90% efficiency so that's almost 1HP that's turned to heat before you start.
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08-23-2008 08:06 PM  12 years ago
QueeQueg

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West Texas

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The peak horsepower ratings for motors are only instantaneous spikes. You can see them on an FDR graph they last for less than a second usually. If you were converting 750Ws to heat for very long no motor could keep cool without maybe liquid cooling or something exotic like that. Even with a hard 3D routine a 90 running 12S is going to average 40As or so. You're really only dissipating about 175W to 200W on average.

Let us know how Scorpion does you with the blown motor. I had one bearing go pretty quick but caught it before the whole motor lunched. I heard it on windup and shut her down to check it out. The bearing was dry and brinnelled and had started to turn the outer race in the bearing pocket. Scorpion was using some cheapo bearings but I heard they were going to go over to some better quality stuff. Don't know if that's the case or not. They're recommending oiling the bearings now every 5 flights. That's too much of PITA IMO so I changed out the original bearings for some NSKs I had already and lubed them with good synthetic high temp high speed bearing grease about 30 flights ago and they seem to be working just fine now. I also green loctited the outer race in the bearing pocket and the inner race to the shaft as well. I'll run em for a 100 and pull them to see how they are doing.
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08-24-2008 03:17 AM  12 years ago
shooter75

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Woodland Hills, Ca

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I was thinking on doin the same thing in terms of replaceing the bearings; however, i was going to use some ceramic bearing from Boca. They must use some pretty sh*tty bearings in those Scorpion Motors!!!! Three Flights! Thats Crazy.

Eric
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09-04-2008 01:39 PM  12 years ago
Ben-T-Spindle

rrProfessor

Central Illinois

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Did you get your motor back from Scorpion?
How long did it take?

Have you made any gearing changes to reduce the load on the motor?

How is it flying?

... BTS
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09-04-2008 05:10 PM  12 years ago
shooter75

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Woodland Hills, Ca

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Still waiting on Scorpion to get an answer. Very slow customer service I have to say!
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09-04-2008 06:04 PM  12 years ago
QueeQueg

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West Texas

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2 weeks and they're right down the road from you. Not good.

I'd think if they weren't gonna do ya right they'd at least let you know fast. Maybe they'er waiting for the new versions to come in and send one of those. Better cooling and hopefully better bearing life.

I re-did my 560 like new motors and it runs much cooler than my 500 which is the original production version.

Been running all summer now on the same NSK bearings with good synthetic bearing grease.

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09-04-2008 06:38 PM  12 years ago
shooter75

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Woodland Hills, Ca

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Wow what did you do to that Scorpion? I like silver!!!! Yeah new bearings are the way to go!!! Im going to call Lucien at Innov8tive today and see whats the progress on the warranty. Does the new version consist of just a redesigned fan?
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09-04-2008 06:57 PM  12 years ago
QueeQueg

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West Texas

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It was pretty scratched up and it turns out they're painted not anodized so I used some citrus stripper and took the original paint off and then cleared it. I turned the fan down like the new versions and like I said put some decent bearings in it.

All they did was angle the the fan end open the air holes top and bottom and hopefully went to some better bearings. The bearings I used cost more for one than the replacement Scorpions are for two.

I know when Hacker first came out with their outrunners the bearings were cheapo Chinese and they trashed sometimes on the first flight. In helicopters It's not something you can skimp on they need to be top quality and well lubed. I've trashed bearings in Kohlers, Neus Z-Motors and Scorpions. This seems to be holding up since I used some Mobil SCH100 full synthetic bearing grease. I guy I know who does tool repair says he uses it on high speed tools like routers that turn 30,000 plus under ridiculous loads and swears by it.
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09-04-2008 07:25 PM  12 years ago
Innov8tive

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San Marcos, CA

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shooter75,

I am sorry for not getting back with you sooner on this, I have been completely swamped since I got back from IRCHA getting caught up, and have not processed the warranty returns as quickly as I usually do. I was working on them today, and pulled your motor apart to see what was wrong with it. What happened is that one of the strands of wire popped up out of one of the slots and got hung up on the corner of one of the magnets. This pulled the wire out further, and brought a couple more strands up with it, eventually jamming between the stator and magnets. This broke the end off one of the magnets which brought the entire motor to an abrupt hault.

Here are a couple photos that show the internal damage to the stator and magnets.

You will be happy to know that the bearings are still in good shape, so that was not the cause of the problem. I am shipping out a new replacement motor today under warranty, so you should have it in a couple days. I will go ahead and send you one of the new style motors, since I have some of those in stock now.

Again, please accept my apology for not getting to this sooner, and hopefully, you can be back up and running for the weekend.

QueeQueg,

Many people assume that the Scorpion motors are anodized, but as you have seen, they are not. Anodizing actually etches a small amount of material away from the aluminum, so it is not usually used on precision machined parts, since it can change the dimensions of the parts. The Scorpion motors use an Electro-Plate process, which is the type of coating that is used on things like eyeglass frames. It does provide a very durable attractive finish, but without the etching properties of anodizing.

Sincerely,

Lucien Miller

Innov8tive Designs
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09-04-2008 07:34 PM  12 years ago
QueeQueg

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West Texas

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Way to go Lucien

Scorpion is cool
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09-04-2008 07:35 PM  12 years ago
Heli 770

rrProfessor

USA.

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Mr Miller
Why can't the winding be epoxied on?
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09-04-2008 07:40 PM  12 years ago
shooter75

rrApprentice

Woodland Hills, Ca

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Hey Lucien I really appreciate you getting back to me. Didn't mean to be inpatient, sorry about that, just miss flying my bird! LOL!.

Thanks
Eric
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09-04-2008 08:04 PM  12 years ago
QueeQueg

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West Texas

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They could be epoxied and they are lacquered but I would think heat dissipation could be a problem if they were epoxy coated.

On outrunners the core is the cooling problem the magnets are exposed to the air and spin so they are naturally going to cool better.

While they are good to like 375*F you want the windings to stay as cool as posssible. They hotter they get the higher their resistence goes and the less efficient the motor will be overall the hotter the core gets.
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09-04-2008 08:07 PM  12 years ago
Innov8tive

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San Marcos, CA

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Heli770,

The windings are normally epoxied into the slots. Somehow the end of one of the wire bundles in this motor got missed during the gluing process, and it lifted up, causing the destruction of the motor.

shooter75,

No problem! I can understand wanting to get that beautiful bird back up in the air! I am just learing how to fly helicopters myself, and sneak out into the driveway everynow and then and practice hovering my little Blade CP Pro. I have an RC-TEK Diablo 450 and a Beam E4 finished and in flying condition, but I only let my buddy fly those for now, since I don't want to wreck them!

Lucien
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09-04-2008 08:08 PM  12 years ago
Heli 770

rrProfessor

USA.

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QueeQueg
Thank You!
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09-05-2008 11:17 AM  12 years ago
Ben-T-Spindle

rrProfessor

Central Illinois

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That’s really good news that the big Scorpion motors don’t have a bearing problem.... BTS
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09-05-2008 01:29 PM  12 years ago
Heli 770

rrProfessor

USA.

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Innov8tive
Thanks for the conformation on the epoxy.
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09-07-2008 05:36 AM  12 years ago
shooter75

rrApprentice

Woodland Hills, Ca

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Well guys thanks to Lucien at Innov8tive, which warrantied my burnt up scorpion and sent me a new verion of the motor I was able to get my bird up today without any problems!!! i.e. stripped gears or smoking motors!!!! LOL

Heres some pics of the new version installed:

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09-07-2008 11:11 AM  12 years ago
Ben-T-Spindle

rrProfessor

Central Illinois

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sent me a new verion of the motor
What are the differences between the new and old versions?
... BTS
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09-07-2008 01:17 PM  12 years ago
QueeQueg

rrVeteran

West Texas

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I wonder if the motor's problem was causing the gear stripping

Some Castle Creation HV ESCs used to cause gear stripping occasionally when they first came out about 20 firmware revisions ago. You didn't even have to push the heli they would strip while hovering sometimes. We figured it was the motor pulsing or maybe even reversing instantaneously. It would peel every single tooth off my R/90 main gear in a flash.

The wire could have been causing an intermittent short and doing something similar.
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