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HomeAircraftHelicopterFuel-Helicopters New or Limited ActivityQuickWW › The 20cc Gasser arrival, build, and review
03-08-2008 02:20 PM  10 years agoPost 21
Eury

rrProfessor

Dover NH

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Please continue to post points and things, when I finish I'm going to gather everything together into a single post for people to be able to reference.

A couple of things. I keep getting PMs from people who have problems with QWW and their own helis that they've bought from QWW. Sorry guys, if you can't tell, I'm not affiliated, actually, I'm a guy who's had his own share of BS with QWW, which is one reason why they sent me the heli to review. If you have a 20cc and see differences in what I'm picturing and writing about (or have problems with yours), take a picture of the same area on yours, and send it to me along with the issue you have, and I'll be sure to address it. Maybe I'll give everyone a laugh and lay down a couple paper towels and make a video using key phrases like "Bear with" and "bottom line" (sorry if you don't get that joke, they guys who do are laughing their asses off.).

I'm getting more motivated to finish these customer helis (finished the stupid Raptor last night, have to do an electronics install and setup on a 450SEv2 still), and get on the 20cc build with every message I get. I'm sure I'll start messing with it today.

Nick Crego

Citizen #0168

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03-08-2008 06:49 PM  10 years agoPost 22
Eury

rrProfessor

Dover NH

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OK, finally getting started with it after finishing up the helis for my customer.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, I don't care who the manufacturer is, I want a printed manual. I shouldn't have to print one out myself, kits cost enough money as it is, we pay enough to cover you printing these things out.

So I'm printing the manual myself, it's 107 pages, I'm printing out about 85 or so of them, and omitting the intro pages, radio setup, crash repairs etc. At first glance, it appears to be a pretty nice manual, each step has a description of the parts needed before it, along with quantity and fastener size and good detailed descriptions. The CD that came with the kit is a newer version than the manual I downloaded from the QWW site last week. It disturbs me when I'm reading a manual and it specifically mentions that I may have to file something to make it fit (which I've seen in this one), but I'll roll with it and see what happens.

Nick Crego

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03-08-2008 06:58 PM  10 years agoPost 23
hootowl

rrProfessor

Garnet Valley, Pa.

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Give us an all up weight when you're done. Thanks for spending the time to do this Eury.

Wolves don't lose sleep over the opinions of sheep

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03-08-2008 07:01 PM  10 years agoPost 24
Eury

rrProfessor

Dover NH

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Will do, still waiting for the damn manual to finish printing. Good thing I've got a laser printer.

Nick Crego

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03-08-2008 08:01 PM  10 years agoPost 25
Eury

rrProfessor

Dover NH

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Got through the first 11 steps (basically the lower frame assembly). These steps were already done on this one, but I went through all the screws etc to make sure locktite was used etc. The locktite use was spotty, I'd say about 30% of the screws had it, the rest didn't. It all went together easy, the frames tie together with a number of crossmembers, then a plate attaches to the top for the electronics etc, and pieces of angle attach to the bottoms of the frames to attach the landing gear to (much like the X-Spec, and X-cells). Keep in mind these were pre-assembled, I just took the screws out and locktited them and made sure they were tightened.

Nice fuel tank, it's small, but that's all you need with a gas engine. It's got a nice sturdy metal cap with a hex screw holding it in. As mentioned above, there is no isolation against vibration, and it sits on the edge of a couple of pieces of carbon. I'm not a fan of this, but Irwin assures me that he's never seen it cut into the tank, and there won't be any vibration. I'll take him at his word on this one and give it a shot. If this were my machine that I had paid money for, I'd be putting some fuel tubing on the edges of those carbon pieces.

Fastener length is inconsistent is the preassembled parts. The manual may say 10mm, but the fasteners in the preassembled parts aren't always that length. I took a picture where you can see that the 2 screws in 1 of the cross members are different lengths by about 2mm.

The radio tray is nice, but the holes are not countersunk. The manual instructs you to pull out a drill and countersink the holes. You can see these holes in the picture with the velcro in it and the phillips head screws. Also, on this assembly, why phillips? Screws this size are available as hexes, why not use those?

Step 11 is aligning the frames on a level surface, I had a tough time getting it perfectly aligned and flat, I ended up having to push down on one side while tightening the screws to get it perfect. Generally when it takes that it means that the 2 sides holes don't perfectly match up, so you push to get it so the bolts are sitting at the edges of tolerance on each side. I did get it aligned without any mods, though. Certainly not like an MA machine where you jsut have all screws slightly loose, set it on a level surface and tighten and it's perfect, but the end result it the same.

This is the end of the good pictures for a while, I'm not going to put my DSLR on the bench to take pics, so these are from my cheap point and shoot.

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03-08-2008 09:43 PM  10 years agoPost 26
Eury

rrProfessor

Dover NH

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Top Frame, tail transmission
I've moved on to the top frames, which includes installing the servos. I'm using JR 8301 servos, they won't be familiar to guys in the US, as they aren't sold here, but overseas they are a well regarded servo. Not too fast (.19 @ 4.8, .15 @ 6v), but extremely precise and smooth, great servos for FAI and sport, and light 3d, about what this gasser should be good for. The instructions show all of the servos installed from inside the frames, however, if the front 2 servos (pitch and ail) are installed inside, the linkages will have a pretty good angle to them, and the servo wires fouled on the frames. Installing them from the outside results in a straight shot to the bell cranks, and saves the wires.

The rear servo (elev) pretty much has to be installed inside the frames for the linkages to be straight. Installing from the outside and putting the balls on the inside of the horn is better, but it still results in a pretty extreme angle. This leaves us with the problem of the servo wire exit on the servo case being almost exactly in line with the opposite side frame. Not good. If I owned this heli, I'd trim the CF frame where pictured below to create the clearance I need. However, since I'm not sure I will buy it, I've left it as is. I've wrapped the wire completely with expandable sleeving, and the wire exit grommet is sitting on the frame. This is not a problem due to my servo choice, this servo is exactly the same size as a standard JR servo, with the wire exit in the same place, so any JR servo (and most likely any other brand) would have the same issue. Left the way it is, that wire will be worn through and shorted out in a short period of time, causing a crash. If I decide to fly this after building it, I may move the servo to the outside and put the balls on the inside to improve the geometry, but it won't be correct. The only way to make the rods have a straight shot that I can see is to install it per the instructions, and break out the dremel.

Moving on, the next assembly is the tail drive pulley and gear. As it came, this was already assembled, however, the gear was hard to turn, and there was a significant amount of play with the top gear on the shaft. Upon pulling it out, my first impression is that it's a nice solid assembly, but on further inspection, there's some issues here. First, the top bearing block appears to have the bearing recess machined off center (there's a picture, I'm not sure how apparent it is in the pic, but looking down at it, the bearing is off by a fraction of a MM.) It may be that the flange is machined wrong, or the whole block is, I don't know, but if it is off center, it explains one reason why the tail shaft was difficult to turn installed in the frame, but not on the bench, as it would never align and cause the friction. Next, if assembled as the instructions picture with the holes in the pulley facing up, the pulley fouls the top of the (mismachined) bearing block. The instructions show the shaft as having both a hole and a flat, however, the shaft I have only has a hole. if it had a flat, I could adjust the pulley up a touch to create the clearance it needs, however, seating the setscrew in the hole (actually a very nice way of doing it, it's extremely secure) locks the pulley into place. If I flip the pulley upside down and tighten the setscrew, it sits just a touch higher and moves freely, so that is how I assembled it. I have attached pics of the assembly along with the diagram from the instructions, and will be contacting QWW for their input on this issue and will report back.

Nick Crego

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03-08-2008 10:45 PM  10 years agoPost 27
rsalazar

rrElite Veteran

Florida, USA

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Thanks for the update, it is looking good

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03-08-2008 10:50 PM  10 years agoPost 28
Eury

rrProfessor

Dover NH

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Got through the next few steps, here's more pics. The tail drive bearing block is definitely off center. Everything moves very freely on the bench, as soon as it's installed in the frame there's drag not a lot, but it is more than what's acceptable. I tried rotating one of the blocks 180deg in the hope that both were machined off center and then they'd line up and it'd work smoothly, but no such luck. So as it sits, the off center block is causing a side load on the bearing and shaft and causing drag. I've been in communication with Irwin, he said he checked 6-7 blocks that he has there, and they are all centered. I guess this is a one off problem.

The main shaft is supported by 2 bearing blocks, the bottom of which has a thrust bearing in it. Very nice design, the thrust bearing is captured inside the block under a radial bearing. I've taken a detail pic of that for you.

The preassembled anti rotation assembly was installed backwards from the instructions, I took it apart and assembled it according to the instructions. (picture from the instructions attached)

My top mainshaft bearing block is different from the one pictured in the instructions, and the instructions don't say which way the flange on the block should go. As preassembled, the flange is facing down, so I left it that way. As it came, the heli had 2 shaft collars on the mainshaft, one above, and one below that block, so the direction the block is facing shouldn't really matter. (picture from the instructions attached)

After dropping the mainshaft through the 2 bearing blocks to get the correct alignment and tightening the bolts, I discovered that the elevator cyclic lever was fouling on the mainshaft. The shaft that the cyclic levers ride on has a long flat where you can attach that lever, I put it centered originally, by moving it over to the edge of the flat, it clears the mainshaft.

Irwin OKed me cutting the frame to relieve the rubbing and stress on the rear servo wire in a PM, I'll do that after the build is complete. Be aware that if you buy one of these helis, you may be required to cut the frames in the same manner.

Nick Crego

Citizen #0168

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03-08-2008 10:55 PM  10 years agoPost 29
rsalazar

rrElite Veteran

Florida, USA

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Nick

Very nice review, thanks

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03-08-2008 11:11 PM  10 years agoPost 30
Eury

rrProfessor

Dover NH

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Probably my last update for the day, my wife and I are about to go out for dinner, so I doubt I'll work on this anymore tonight.

The entire top frame assembly is complete. Not a whole lot to report.

I seem to be missing the top canopy mounts that attach to the top frame section, or the ones I have are 50mm, instead of the 40mm that the instructions call for. I will keep the 50mm ones off, and if they are still sitting around at the end of the build, I will install them where the 40mm ones are called for.

The only issue that I have is that the pinion doesn't fit all the way up and flush with the block like it shows in the instructions and every other heli I've had does. This part was preassembled, and I can not get it any farther up into the bearing block. It seems to me that the top shank of the pinion is a bit too long, but we'll see how it works once everything is assembled.

Nick Crego

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03-11-2008 04:38 AM  10 years agoPost 31
rsalazar

rrElite Veteran

Florida, USA

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Nick!!

Any more updates?

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03-11-2008 10:39 AM  10 years agoPost 32
Eury

rrProfessor

Dover NH

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Nope, sorry, my progress on things is directly related to my 1mo old son's sleeping schedule (or lack thereof) As you can tell by the time of this post and me not updating it for a couple of days, the nights have been long at Casa de Crego.

Nick Crego

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03-14-2008 02:28 AM  10 years agoPost 33
Eury

rrProfessor

Dover NH

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Got a package from QWW today, it's a new bearing block to replace the mis-machined one from the 20cc kit. I'll continue with the build tomorrow.

Nick Crego

Citizen #0168

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03-14-2008 02:31 AM  10 years agoPost 34
S76 Mech

rrElite Veteran

Hatboro, Pa.

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Looks good so far Nick.

Gaui Greatness X7, X5, NX4, X3

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03-14-2008 02:48 AM  10 years agoPost 35
ozghost1952

rrApprentice

Melbourne Australia

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Interesting ....
when Nick reports a mismachined item - he gets a replacement - when I report a mismachined item - I am accused of hacking it ....

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03-14-2008 02:55 AM  10 years agoPost 36
rsalazar

rrElite Veteran

Florida, USA

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Nick!!

Thanks for the update

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03-14-2008 02:57 AM  10 years agoPost 37
Eury

rrProfessor

Dover NH

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Come on man, don't turn the thread into that. Everyone knows what happened to you, and the purpose of this thread is to show people what the kit is like, if they are interested in customer service, there's plenty of threads to look at.

Nick Crego

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03-14-2008 04:49 AM  10 years agoPost 38
Eury

rrProfessor

Dover NH

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OK, I'm getting PMs like crazy from people after my last post. Here's the bottom line on this.

1. I am NOT defending QWW's actions towards the men from the land of OZ, or passing any judgment whatsoever on those issues.

2. I am NOT being compensated for this review.

3. I am NOT affiliated with QWW in ANY way.

4. I am NO ONE SPECIAL, I just took QWW up on their offer to let someone build a 20cc gasser to do a review on it.

Frankly, this is a chore. I don't own the heli, I'm doing it because I thought I could give something back to the RR community that's given me so much. I have a 5 week old son (read that as I'm not getting much sleep), I run my business out of my house, and I've been doing a lot of work flying passengers the past couple of weeks. Basically, time is tight, and this review is work. Generally for building a stacked frame heli like this I get $250, it's being done here for free.

Is QWW giving me special treatment? Hell, I don't know, and frankly, I don't care. I can say that they've been very good to me, and responsive to my issues and questions. Irwin sent me a PM on a Sunday to say that he was sending me a replacement bearing block. I've had past dealings with them, and this is not the level of support I received in the past, but they claim to be improving, and from my personal experience, it seems they are. If you want to draw your own support conclusions, it's pretty easy to do, read through this forum and make the call on your own. I'm not going to tell you what to think.

So let me know if you guys want to see me carry this thing through and finish the build, or if you want me to draw my conclusions now and box it up to go back to QWW. I figure that no matter what QWW heli you might look at, once I get beyond the frames and engine, the heads and tail are interchangable, so that part of the review will apply to all their designs.

So what's the verdict? Should I continue, or pack it up? I don't mind finishing, I mind people giving me crap for this. There's a lot of guys who I consider friends who've been pming me questions and comments (you know who you are), I don't mind that in the least, I love conversing with you guys. But jumping on me because of past dealings with QWW is not welcome, (I'm not pointing my finger at the OZ boys, there's plenty of others who've been doing it as well).

Let me know guys. I'll either finish the frames up tomorrow, or box it up.

Nick Crego

Citizen #0168

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03-14-2008 05:10 AM  10 years agoPost 39
ozghost1952

rrApprentice

Melbourne Australia

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Sorry guys - I didnt intend to distract the build - please finish the task you have started - I am sure the community will value and respect your report

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03-14-2008 05:26 AM  10 years agoPost 40
rsalazar

rrElite Veteran

Florida, USA

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Nick, I would like you to continue with the review, I think you are doing a great job with the build and the review. This is one review that is needed.

I would like to know more about the QWW gasser, and I think from Nick's review anybody should be able to make a good decision about this helicopter. Why do we let him finished?

So far, for what I have seen on this thread. Nick have been objective, honest, sincere, and to the point. What else do you want?

Also, QWW is trying to keep their word in term of improving, and be more responsive on their customer support. Let's see what happen

So for once, why don't we try to have a thread that is a helpful thread.

Thanks Nick, for your time and effort.

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