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HomeAircraftHelicopterMain Discussion › Charmouth and 2.4 GHz
03-07-2008 11:22 AM  10 years agoPost 41
dazzaster

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right next door to hell

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bond007 i have read that bulletin very carefully and it states that prior to the trasmitter being tested all pilots should check with each other on the ground that there set do not interupt with each other. thats prior to being tested now that my transmitter has been tested it is as far as im concerned fixed i will know if theres a problem the minute i turn on and find my rx is not binded to the tx.

is all im saying is yes i agree with safety but if a transmitter has been tested then it should be considerd good to go.
if anyone espiccially a governing body such as bmfa or aha are saying otherwise then what information are they going by ? and if its the manufactorers who are saying there may still be a problem then do i have a right to get my money back as technicaly it should not be CE marked .
Darren

A.K.A 509

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03-07-2008 12:13 PM  10 years agoPost 42
dazzaster

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also something that just crossed my mind (didnt have far to go)
what if i turned up at charmouth with my working ff9 with the spektrum module installed, would i be able to fly?
the only reason i ask is that useing a third party product on a futaba system (or any other system)would normally void any warrent/garentee's a bit like upgradeing your car without telling the issurers they wont cover it.
what is the stance on this are you insured when useing third party equipment with your tx??? or has this been over looked?

A.K.A 509

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03-07-2008 12:31 PM  10 years agoPost 43
RotarSoft

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St Leonards On Sea UK

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Darren,

Yes you may check your system and deem it good to go. The issue is that the AHA can not confirm everybody will do the safety check steps that you do. As the transmitters are under AHA impound and control it is their responsibility to make sure that no transmitter interferes with another to the best of their abilities. As has been stated many times in this thread there is currently not a PERMANENT fix for some of the systems. As there is still a risk of a user reseting the GUID on their system prior to flying then the AHA has decided that as this is a public event the only way to be sure is to limit the affected systems to a 1 in 1 out policy.

As for the 3rd party modules this has not been overlooked. As long as they have been through the necessary certification procedure to be legally sold in the UK then they are covered by the BMFA insurance. What effect this has on your warranty/guarantee differs from manufacturer to manufacturer but has nothing to do with the legality or insurability of the system. Much like using a non manufacturer recommended oil in your car.. it's legal.. it's safe.. but your manufacturer may toss your warranty out the window.. another may not.

Mark

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03-07-2008 01:31 PM  10 years agoPost 44
pchristy

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Devon, England

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Putting my engineer's hat on for a moment:

The test that RipMax suggest only proves that the set is OK AT THAT MOMENT IN TIME! It may not be the next time you switch it on.

I know RipMax are saying that all will be well provided you don't switch it off too soon after switching on, but we cannot guarantee that all pilots will stick by this. There are an awful lot of numpties out there, and I don't fancy being hit by a heli just because some idiot can't follow simple instructions!

Also, the switches on these sets don't guarantee a "clean" switch on. If you move the switch slowly, or if you've got it dirty (been flying in the rain?) its quite possible the switch will produce a "splat" at switch on that could trigger the zero-id bug.

As someone pointed out, we have a duty of care. I believe the restrictions are entirely reasonable under the circumstances, and shouldn't cause more than a minimum of inconvenience. Its going to be hardest on those in Tx control!

All EU approved sets will be welcome. The 2.4 GHz X9303s are NOT EU approved. Insurance only applies if you are acting within the law. If you knowingly commit an offence, the insurers are quite within their rights to refuse to pay out. By flying a non-EU approved set, you are committing an offence, and MAY not be covered by the insurance. No-one knows for sure, because thank God, it hasn't happened yet! The AHA has no wish for Charmouth to become a test case! So sets that are not approved will not be accepted by Tx control.

Charmouth is meant to be a fun event. We want everyone to be able to come along and enjoy themselves without having to worry about the above issues. I'm sure that the vast majority of those attending will be quite happy to accept these minimal restrictions for the extra security they provide.

--
Pete

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03-07-2008 04:46 PM  10 years agoPost 45
dazzaster

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rotorsoft thanks for clearing that up for me i didwonder about third party equipment.
Also, the switches on these sets don't guarantee a "clean" switch on. If you move the switch slowly, or if you've got it dirty (been flying in the rain?) its quite possible the switch will produce a "splat" at switch on that could trigger the zero-id bug.
isnt that the case with all switches ? or are you saying that all switches are like this but its only futabas programing/circuit board that cant hadle any power fluctuations?

A.K.A 509

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03-07-2008 07:08 PM  10 years agoPost 46
pchristy

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Devon, England

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isnt that the case with all switches ? or are you saying that all switches are like this but its only futabas programing/circuit board that cant hadle any power fluctuations?
Yes, most switches are like that. But at the moment, the only sets we know that are susceptible to being affected by rapid switch on/off are the ones mentioned. No other sets seem to suffer this way as far as we know.

Better safe than sorry!

--
Pete

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03-07-2008 10:39 PM  10 years agoPost 47
Moss

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GB

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Yup, iron out all the sneaky 'git's' that bought illegal tx's from overseas as-well.

right 'on'

Col.
I was at a site the other day with a bloke who had a 9XII with a Spektrum module, the aerial connection had come loose on the module and nearly caused the end of his heli, more dangerous than someone with an imported set me thinks

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03-08-2008 02:14 AM  10 years agoPost 48
Yug

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UK. Herts

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Well I guess I shot myself in the foot getting an X9303

Vegetable rights and Peace

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03-08-2008 02:26 AM  10 years agoPost 49
wlfk

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uk

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I'm not sure that I follow the reasoning.

Imagine you have a TX that suddenly goes ZGUID. There's no chance of it shooting down another ship, unless that other ship was already operating on a ZGUID RX.

If you banned ZGUID RXs from operating to start with then there could never be a problem. This would be fairly easy to test. The worst that might happen is that somebody's TX would go wrong, and he wouldn't be able to take off without rebinding.

Are you saying that you'll only restrict TXs that have already gone ZGUID? This makes sense to me, as the RXs will already be ZGUID and you're just back in the land of making sure that people aren't flying on the same frequency.

K

A bit like a kite, but 500 times more expensive

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03-08-2008 08:40 AM  10 years agoPost 50
dazzaster

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K
they are saying that even though your system has been test and is not z guild there is a chance that if you dont follow futaba recomendation to not switch off within 5 sec of switching on then you may cause your tx to go to zero agian.
but your hitting the same point as i said it would take two peps to make the same mistake. they would have to first both switch on and off very quickly and there no garetee this would zero the tx to defualt seeting then they would both have to relise they are not binded to there rx then they would both have to be stupid enough to rebind and go fly after being made aware of the problem from tx control it takes a lot of circumstances for that to happen. no more than a complete novice not knowing what there doing going out sarting there heli with the tx selected on the wrong model and the heli wipping up in the air and over into a crowed of people.
i think i will put a pound on the lottery tonight as i think ive got better chances of winning that than going to z guild at the same time as someone else and not relising it.

A.K.A 509

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03-08-2008 10:21 AM  10 years agoPost 51
Bond007

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Leicestershire UK

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This thread was started to inform people, that if they were going to Charmouth, and were using one of the affected Futaba sets, then there would be reaonable precautions taken, to prevent any problems occuring, during the day, with these radios.

I'll bet there isn't one person who has replied on this thread that; a) owns one of the affected Futaba sets, and
b) is going to Charmouth

It was never posted as a "what do you think of this" question.

It is a statement

If your not happy about it you have 3 choices;

1. Go, accept this 'restriction', and have a cracking weekend.
2. Don't go.
3. Get a different radio system.

It's not rocket science

If I was using one of the affected radios, I'd be getting my money back, but that's just my opinion. You can bleat and moan as much as you want on here, it isn't going to make any difference, but if that's what you enjoy doing, then fill your boots.

Blitz Avro, Align Trex600, Blade MCX

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03-08-2008 11:46 AM  10 years agoPost 52
simon_t

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Herne Bay, Kent, England

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And if you do go, make sure you take someone with you to walk in front of your heli carrying a red flag...

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03-08-2008 02:47 PM  10 years agoPost 53
bagobitz

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saddleworth,lancs,UK

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The last half of Bond's post is right on.

It's THEIR party, THEIR RULES....Don't like it?- Don't go!

Regarding the "import" question....AFAIK, they're ALL IMPORTS
(far-east manufacture, though a Japanese brand is ,nowadays, probably "offshored" from there, anyway)

EC approval is another thing entirely...and begs the question.....

"Are you saying or implying that non-EC destined 2.4 GHz sets are of inferior spec to the "genuine" EC certified ones? "

The truth is the appointed distributor's territory has to be protected from parallel imports which undermine their profitsand lead to support issues.....It's NOT realistic to expect the UK distributor -(with the high red-tape, taxation and employment-legislation costs of operating)-to repair,under warranty, stuff bought from a country with half the overheads and therefore selling at half the price.

I am extremely sympathetic to "grey importing",but the importer has to accept the risks involved.

Any "bleeding edge " item, (car, computer, electronics,etc.) has teething problems...(look at early Realflight G3! )...
If you rushed out and paid premium price to be a front -rumnner with 2.4....you just have to accept the big drawbacks along with the bragging-rights.

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03-08-2008 03:38 PM  10 years agoPost 54
Andy from Sandy

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Bedfordshire, UK

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bagobitz, Unless you are just playing devils advocate, I am sure you know that equipment has to go through type approval before it can be used in this country. Even non-electronics goods get CE approval.

On the question of 2.4GHz radios, in this country we use a lower power output from the tx than the rest of the world. So although it is the same product as sold in say Hong Kong or America the output has been reduced.

The approval process ensures that so long as the production models follow the unit that was sent for test then the powers that be can be assured the radio is transmitting on the correct frequency and at the correct power and is not likely to cause interference with others.

The same process was carried out on 27 and 35 MHz systems we currently use for land and air.

The approval process has nothing to do with protecting sales territories, this is an ofcom requirement I think you will find.

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03-08-2008 04:32 PM  10 years agoPost 55
dazzaster

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This thread was started to inform people, that if they were going to Charmouth, and were using one of the affected Futaba sets, then there would be reaonable precautions taken, to prevent any problems occuring, during the day, with these radios.

I'll bet there isn't one person who has replied on this thread that; a) owns one of the affected Futaba sets, and
b) is going to Charmouth
um i think a) you will find i do own the forementioned futaba set
b) i fully intend on going to charmouth
c)how much was that bet
It was never posted as a "what do you think of this" question.
sorry are you not allowed to ask questions because on my screen theres a tab that says post reply not topic closed

A.K.A 509

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03-08-2008 05:25 PM  10 years agoPost 56
TOSH

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UK.Peterborough

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The approval process has nothing to do with protecting sales territories,

Flybars. Who needs `em.

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03-08-2008 05:48 PM  10 years agoPost 57
pchristy

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Devon, England

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Look, this is dead simple!

If your set is not EU approved, then you are breaking the law if you use it in the UK.

If you break the law, YOU ARE NO LONGER COVERED BY YOUR INSURANCE!

Now you can argue till your blue in the face about the rights and wrongs of that, how unfair it is, if non-approved sets are dangerous....

IT DOESN'T MAKE ANY DIFFERENCE.

If you choose to fly illegally, don't expect the insurance to cough up if you have an accident.

If you don't have insurance, you don't fly at Charmouth!

That's why we check everyone's insurance at Tx check-in.

Now, is THAT simple enough for everybody?

--
Pete

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03-08-2008 06:34 PM  10 years agoPost 58
bagobitz

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saddleworth,lancs,UK

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P Christy.. I totally agree with you. We have to abide by the law or get it changed.

Andy from Sandy....yup, just trying to show both sides of the coin....but I get p'd off at some of this legislation these f/wit jobsworth beaurocrats come up with.

why the hell should we have to use a lower-power(therefore "less safe" output) than the rest of the world,when the frequency-spectrum is purportedly exclusively allocated for this purpose?

The rest of the world is perfectly happy to accept that the R/C designer/manufacturer is making a product that will ensure prosperity for their company...to do that, it has to be economically viable and deliver what it promises......but that's not good enough for the british Jobsworth!...he has to "gold-plate " EU regulations....or throw his weight around to force a "single sector" product on a "single market"....Oh, Sorry, I actually believed a political selling -point for a "european community".....stupid,naive old me!

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03-08-2008 07:00 PM  10 years agoPost 59
Yug

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UK. Herts

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If one were to bring along an X9303 to Charmouth, which has been tweeked to reduce the output power inline with the stupid British regulations, and a certificate is shown to certify this, would it be OK to use ?

Vegetable rights and Peace

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03-08-2008 08:25 PM  10 years agoPost 60
dazzaster

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right next door to hell

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even worse, apart from the tx's that we know are grey imports because there not available in the uk yet, whats to stop someone from importing something like futaba 14mz and takeing there CE marked sticker and serial no or importers sticker (ripmax sticker) off an old tx and putting it on the imported tx. would you be able to tell without looking very hard at it?.
also god forbid it happened but if there was an accident that involved insurence pay out (helicopter hits a car)will the first thing anyone do be to check that your transmitter is CE aproved. or will they just say what happened there then?will it be a case of heres my membership and isurence details heres my address and other details let the issurence company deal with it and when the insurence comapany comes round or anyone comes round to investigate you show them your other transmitter that was bought in the uk not the actuel one you where useing? or does no one bother call in on you?

A.K.A 509

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