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HomeOff Topics › An insult to Americas finest.
03-07-2008 01:49 PM  10 years agoPost 41
SSN Pru

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Taxachusetts

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An interesting aside on the subject at hand.

I was watching the show "Gangland" on the history channel last night.

Apparently, the US Military has been infested with thousands of active gang members.

They said that since 2003, Moral waivers have increased 65%. In 2007, over 9000 moral waivers were given to new recruits. In case you don't know what a moral waiver is, it is a waiver given to potential recruits who have been convicted of a gang type activities such as assaults. Many of them were let into the military even after having committed serious felonies!!

Being a Vet myself, it was a real big eye opener. I knew some "hoodlums" in my time in the service but never once thought they could be gangsters...

Stupidity can be cured. Ignorance is for life!

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03-07-2008 02:40 PM  10 years agoPost 42
9387ASH

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UK

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Looking at those additional clips, is there any wonder why the US is detested by so many ??

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03-07-2008 03:19 PM  10 years agoPost 43
MattJen

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UK

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torturing animals is one step towards torture and mistreatment of humans...

so you never pulled the legs of a spider? or a crane fly ?

Or caught a mouse in a trap and the trap did not actually kill the mouse or rat ?

or put a goldfish in a glass bowl and watch the fish swim around gasping for oxygen ?

I can assure you i am not a serial killer, and dont intend on working towards one..

This guy was obviously bored and did something, maybe doing a video of it was a bit daft, but i expect in Iraq dogs are pest as rats are over here, and i am sure none us would think twice about chasing one with a baseball bat trying to beat it....

One mans pet is anothers pest..... i love rabbits, but to a farmer they are a pest that causes a lot of financial damage to a crop..

i would not keep a dog, but i would not hurt them, and would worry sick i run one over in my car, but i have not been trained to kill, and i have not been trained to show no emotion in a war zone...and i owuld expect most of us will never know what it is like to be in a war zone...

Just my opinion,and no offence intended

matt

All The Best

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03-07-2008 03:28 PM  10 years agoPost 44
9387ASH

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UK

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Matt,

If it was just a case of "culling", that's a different matter, but to laugh and enjoy it ???

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03-07-2008 03:33 PM  10 years agoPost 45
MattJen

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UK

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whats the diffrence between that and fox hunting ?

Which britain is known for and part of our heritage? Just as Spain is known for Bull fighting, stabbing a bull with spears for fun until it drops with exhaustion ? And the Matador is considered a hero and is well paid for it...

which most tourists will pay money to go and see and chant ?

Or to add, even freshwater fishing, just for enjoyment, you pick on this guy for this it opens up a whole can of worms...

I just think it is a bit hypocritical to single out this guy who is fighting in a hostile situation to pick him up on this...

as said - it is not something i would do,i just could not do it, but i would not judge someone who does not have my standards...

Matt

All The Best

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03-07-2008 03:37 PM  10 years agoPost 46
VKGT

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Sanford, NC

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Marine BOOT. That video is not fake. I hope that Marine feels the consequences of his actions.

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03-07-2008 04:01 PM  10 years agoPost 47
SSN Pru

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Taxachusetts

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Mattjenn,

your posting tell me you are ok with Marines or anyone else for that matter throwing a puppy over a cliff...

How sad!

Stupidity can be cured. Ignorance is for life!

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03-07-2008 04:22 PM  10 years agoPost 48
MattJen

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UK

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UMDPRU

I did not say that, i said it is not something i would do,as i have feelings and a little emotion...

But a soilder is different, taught to show and have no emotions, us sitting in our cosy comfortable countries away from war and fear of being blown up at any second in my opinion should not judge a guy who is on the front line for throwing a dog off a cliff...

I feel it is unfair to single this guy out and make an example of him, when if we probably thought about some of the stuff we have done either as individuals or as a people, then we ar ebeing hypocritical,

Ok a dog got thrown over a cliff, i noted a few examples in a prev post, of stuff that is considered acceptable,in shall we say many modern up to date countries,

i am not disagreeing,but putting up the other side to argument, a lot have come on here spouting angry posts, when if we consider, we have probably been cruel to an animal at some point in our lives, it is just foturnate when we were did it UTUBE,or MYSPACE, or FACEBOOK and mobile phones werent around..
.
But i respect your opinion, i am probably in the minority,

Matt

All The Best

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03-07-2008 04:31 PM  10 years agoPost 49
VKGT

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Sanford, NC

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MattJen,

You have to understand the bigger picture here, it only takes one Marine to represent all of the Marine Corps and their proud heritage. Something like this will only have a negative impact on their image in the view of both military leaders and the public no matter how you look at it. It has to do with better judgement and decision making.

Same goes for the other branches of the US Military. I spent 4 years in the UK as well as all over the rest of the world and it is especially critical to present the appropriate image when traveling outside of the US.

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03-07-2008 04:36 PM  10 years agoPost 50
SSN Pru

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Taxachusetts

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But a soilder is different, taught to show and have no emotions, us sitting in our cosy comfortable countries away from war and fear of being blown up at any second in my opinion should not judge a guy who is on the front line for throwing a dog off a cliff...
Nice try...

I am a Veteran of Operation Iraqi Freedom. I was in Iraq for 352 Days and saw my fair share of crap there.

you can claim all you want that soldiers are taught to have an show no emotion but it is simply not the case. Soldiers are taught to kill if required to and perform their mission without question. It's a large step to go from being taught to kill and perform a mission without question to "showing no emotion"!

If a soldier were taught to show and have no emotions then Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome shouldn't use the term Traumatic should it...

Stupidity can be cured. Ignorance is for life!

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03-07-2008 04:37 PM  10 years agoPost 51
SSN Pru

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Taxachusetts

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It has to do with better judgement and decision making.
Bingo!

Stupidity can be cured. Ignorance is for life!

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03-07-2008 04:40 PM  10 years agoPost 52
drdot

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So. California, Orange County.

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fwiw..

How's about you let me throw Mike Vic off a cliff..even things out a bit..This is inexcusable...Had I been there, the punk would have followed the dog...

B.C.

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03-07-2008 04:55 PM  10 years agoPost 53
MattJen

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UK

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[B]You have to understand the bigger picture here, it only takes one Marine to represent all of the Marine Corps and their proud heritage. Something like this will only have a negative impact on their image in the view of both military leaders and the public no matter how you look at it. It has to do with better judgement and decision making.

I agree 100%, maybe i do need to see the bigger picture,

you can claim all you want that soldiers are taught to have an show no emotion but it is simply not the case. Soldiers are taught to kill if required to and perform their mission without question. It's a large step to go from being taught to kill and perform a mission without question to "showing no emotion"!

Not quite sure of that point, i could not kill full stop,just havent got it in me,- i was stabbed 12 months ago by a 13yr old lad high on drugs,all the times i have said i would do this and do that, when it came to the crunch i was too scared to do anything....

The guys are prepared to carry out orders which involes the taking of lives, there is no way on this planet i could do it, so what i was trying to say with that kind of training, the life of a dog is not much, when you have been trained to take a human life... no matter how bad you feel afterwards....

Matt

All The Best

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03-07-2008 05:29 PM  10 years agoPost 54
1stPlace

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Ohio USA

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when it came to the crunch i was too scared to do anything...
Wow... It takes a big man to admit that! I guess I would have made a good Marine. I have no problem stomping a punk to near death, I've done it twice without remorse. If I were any more unhinged, I probably would have killed them. But, I stopped short of that because I didn't want to end up in prison.

I still would not intentionally harm an innocent person or animal, I don't have that in me. I feel bad when I have to punish my pet cats!

Diejenigen, die nicht lernen aus den Fehlern der Vergangenheit bestimmt sind, zu wiederholen.

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03-07-2008 05:52 PM  10 years agoPost 55
SSN Pru

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Taxachusetts

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The guys are prepared to carry out orders which involes the taking of lives, there is no way on this planet i could do it, so what i was trying to say with that kind of training, the life of a dog is not much, when you have been trained to take a human life
One important consideration you are neglecting is what 1stplace brought up.

Soldiers are trained to take the life of combatants. Combatants who would otherwise kill the soldier if the soldier didn't kill the enemy first.

I highly doubt the dog was out to kill the Marine.

I've been through the training and your statement that a dog's life is not much compared to a human life is to broad and generalized.

I would have instantly defended myself or my fellow soldiers while over there if I had to - to include taking a life. I would never intentionally hurt an animal though and laugh about it.

Stupidity can be cured. Ignorance is for life!

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03-07-2008 06:02 PM  10 years agoPost 56
kookboy

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Vancouver, BC

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But a soilder is different, taught to show and have no emotions, us sitting in our cosy comfortable countries away from war and fear of being blown up at any second in my opinion should not judge a guy who is on the front line for throwing a dog off a cliff...
He's showing emotion alright.

Arrogant, joking and playful while tossing the dog.

... But honey it was only $$$

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03-07-2008 06:45 PM  10 years agoPost 57
MattJen

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UK

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i have to say guys, i thank you for not shooting me down in flames, but debating this in a nice manner..

It has been interesting to read the threads, especially from service men both ex and current...something i can never understand, as i have never served for king and country..

I can understand why you think he has brought disgrace on the marine corrs...

I can respect that...

[quote]If I were any more unhinged, I probably would have killed them. But, I stopped short of that because I didn't want to end up in prison.

i have to say that takes good self control also, i was defending a friend who was very similar nature to yourself, would have mullerd the young punk,but over here there are more laws to protect the criminal than the victim...
My friend would have been arrested as he was 28 and this lad was in the eyes of the law considered a minor...

Soldiers are trained to take the life of combatants. Combatants who would otherwise kill the soldier if the soldier didn't kill the enemy first.

that is also something i had not considerd. a very valid point which i respect..

have a good weekend all

Matt

All The Best

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03-07-2008 08:12 PM  10 years agoPost 58
MPA

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Australia

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Met a few marines back in 81, I lived in West Aus and a US ship was in town.
Invited them over to our place for afternoon drinkypoo's and sausage sizzle.
Sent them back to the ship in a Cab, staggering.
(Their intro to Aus beer)

I asked why they joined up.
2 of the 3 told me they had misdemeanors, the judge gave them the option of the Marines for 2 years, or Prison Bars for 3 months.
The deal was something along those lines.
The third joined because everyone else did where he came from.

I had a little doubt about that prison option story.
I guess it is true then.

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03-07-2008 08:15 PM  10 years agoPost 59
9387ASH

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UK

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MPA, it used to be the same over here some years ago (prior to my enlisting for 22 years back in '73).

Army service sorted out a very high percentage of them.

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03-07-2008 08:16 PM  10 years agoPost 60
MPA

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Australia

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torturing animals is one step towards torture and mistreatment of humans...

so you never pulled the legs of a spider? or a crane fly ?

Or caught a mouse in a trap and the trap did not actually kill the mouse or rat ?

or put a goldfish in a glass bowl and watch the fish swim around gasping for oxygen ?

I can assure you i am not a serial killer, and dont intend on working towards one..
As an inquisitive child perhaps it is excusable..

If you are still doing these acts as an adult, then the statement in Bold certainly applies.
And adult commiting these acts is not right in the head.

There is killing and there is killing.

Killing your dinner, killing your enemy, killing unintentionally can occur in any normal person.

Torturous Killing, killing everything, killing just becuase you can, killing for sexual pleasure and the like, is not a thing a normal adult person is capable of.
It takes a psycopathic personality to have the will to do it.
That is, inversely proportional pleasure to the pain the victim suffers.
Or an extremely retarded child like peurile personality that has still yet to realise their actions have a harmfull consiquence.

I don't kill insects.
If there is a spider on the wall, I encourage it to go outside with a little help sometimes but no harm.
Ants in any numbers, I kill them.
I never got enjoyment from hunting any animals (bunnies and roo's) and gave up pretty early.
Firearms do not interest me.
But if I went to war, I would kill the enemy as required and go back to camp, have tea and sleep like a baby that that night.
And think nothing of doing it the next day.
If I was confronted by someone seeking to harm me, I would flee everytime it was possible. If I can not flee I attack with frenzy.

It is easy to make the decision.
Using the same thing that every normal adult person has.
The Right and Wrong Meter.

When there is a choice between the right and the wrong thing to do.
Normal adult peoples indicators tells them instantaeously that is the right thing to do or the wrong theng to do.
It is the point just after that, some continue on the do the wrong thing, but not without hesitation.
Most learn to do the right thing without hesitation.

It is the fine lines between serial killer, petty crim, law abiding people, law abiding and morally decent people.

Their right and wrong meter indicates which is which in a nano second, their trained reaction in less time after that is to always do the right thing, never willingly do the wrong thing.
All in less time than it takes to speak their next word in a conversation.

Based on that and other things here is my bet.
This marine is using the dog to try to prove to others he is fit to fight the enemy.
Becuase he is in dire fear that he will not have the guts when the lead starts flying.
And when the heat is on, he will curl up in the ditch and pee his pants.
Everytime he has had to do it so far, he was peeing his pants and trying more not to show it to others.
So when he has the audience, he takes the extra steps of in his mind, proving he is to the real job, by killing for no particular reason.
He beleiving it will prove to others he can kill the enemy in a blink too.
But as we know, we kill the enemy becuase they want to kill us and or our nation.

I'd suggest he is a danger to his comrades, who when expeting him to be covering them in hot battle, may one day find him curled crying in the corner behind them leaving them wide open..

If I was in his lot and saw it, I'd be going to the CO to suggest this guy is not quite right in the head, potantially unreliable and needs to visit the Military shrink.
I am betting at least one or more of the others who saw it would be thinking the same as me.

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