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HomeAircraftHelicopterAntiques or Out of Business › GMP Legend Flybarless on Modern Scale Heli
03-05-2008 01:35 AM  10 years agoPost 1
marcw

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Southern California

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So what is all this I have heard about the GMP Legend flybarless head being unstable and causing crashes?

I finally got my hands on one, and decided to be brave and throw it on my Trex 600E scale jetranger (a big thanks to jczankl for his help and encouragement).

Literally, 40 minutes later I had it flying…it was that easy to set up!

I just took off the Align head, put the collective to mid stick, installed a Hirobo / GMP washout assembly (just to keep the swash in place), and made a couple of equal sized control rods.

The carbon 600mm Curtis blades I had been using needed their washers to fit snug in the Hirobo blade grips.

Spun her up and was surprised to see that the blades were perfectly tracked!

Liftoff, and she feels good…just a bit twitchy around center stick. A little expo adjustment is all she needs.

Flys great and looks much more scale now!

Flybarless is all the rage now, but everyone seems to putting gyros on the swash...this head seems to work fine on its own.

Was GMP ahead of their time?????

Marc

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03-05-2008 02:21 AM  10 years agoPost 2
HFr

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Lagrange ,in USA

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Got to remember back then we didn't have expo on the radios to tame the center and we also didn't have carbon blades that you could sling around at over 2000 RPM's ... matter of fact if you slung woodies around at 1200 RPM's back then you were condsidered brave
The heads flew ..but with lower RPM's /flexing wood blades they were a handful .

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03-05-2008 08:55 AM  10 years agoPost 3
jczankl

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AZ

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Looks good man. Got to like the looks of a scale machine with flybarless rotorhead.

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03-05-2008 05:05 PM  10 years agoPost 4
Clearance

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Rain Forest of Western Canada

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Glad to hear of your success! Looks GREAT.

Just from my standpoint: Some of the flybarless electronics is intended to do some very serious 3D. With the additional gyros, there's considerable more stability in hover with lightning fast cyclic. It's so easy to see the benefits of a HH gyro on the tail. Now we have the advantage of these HH gyros on both aileron and elevator. Moreover, removal of the flybar, paddles, etc. eliminates drag which equals to slightly more power. These are the benefits for 3D flyers. For scale fliers, the benefits are also obvious.
It's the advances in electronics that makes eCCPM and flybarless helis that much more appealing. Ken

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03-06-2008 02:25 AM  10 years agoPost 5
Mr. C

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HOLLYWOOD, FLORIDA, USA

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WOW!!!
Hi Mark...GREAT looking heli...I just love that look !!!!...it makes my heart miss a few beats...I swear !!!

Thanks,
Constantine....So many toys.....So little time.....
constantinemourlas@yahoo.com

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03-06-2008 04:31 AM  10 years agoPost 6
marcw

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Southern California

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hey fellas...thanks for the compliments! This whole crazy idea started off as a "what-would-happen-if-we-tried-this" sort of experiment that worked out much better than anyone could have expected!

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03-07-2008 12:18 AM  10 years agoPost 7
TMoore

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Cookeville, TN

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Got to remember back then we didn't have expo on the radios to tame the center and we also didn't have carbon blades that you could sling around at over 2000 RPM's ... matter of fact if you slung woodies around at 1200 RPM's back then you were condsidered brave
The heads flew ..but with lower RPM's /flexing wood blades they were a handful .
All the radios that I had back then had EXPO. Radios like the Century VII, Unlimited 8, ATX CS5H and Galaxy. All these radios were in use when the Legend was being sold. We also had Sitar blades, Zigsaw's, Peka's and a few other brands of glass blades that ran great on the Legend.

TM

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03-07-2008 12:52 AM  10 years agoPost 8
Mark Spies

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Houston & LaPlace

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TM
Were showing our age..... Mark

Team Can't Get Right Starwood Models

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03-07-2008 02:38 AM  10 years agoPost 9
HFr

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Lagrange ,in USA

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O.K.
I never had the legend flybarless ..I learned my lesson on the American R/C helicotpers flybarless ...which was before the legends If I remember right and it was back before I had the century V11 or before I had the zigsaw blades !!! and it was a hand full ..
Didn't say it didn't fly ...but it was not much fun in any wind and I sure would not have put it in a scale bird at the time .

Now maybe I was just out in the sticks to far and behind the times ,,but others I read about were having troubles with them also ... thus all companies dropped them after a short time .

I also seem to remember that we didn't even have fully made blades yet when I had mine ... you glued balsa trailing edges on the hardwood leading edges and then sanded them to some type of an airfoil and had to add the weight ( which was less than the current blade weights ) and then balance them ( usually a day job ) .

I also am sure that we didn't have a GV-1 to keep the RPM the same so the phasing didn't change at different RPM's of a throttle curve setup and we sure didn't have a nice piezo gyro to hold the tail rock solid yet .

Speaking of curves we also at that time didn't have a pitch or throttle curve radio ...all that was done with servo wheel placement
and I am sorry ..but the century V11 that I have in my hands at the moment ...doesn't have expo or pitch and throttle curves ... I can take a picture of it to refresh your memory ... I didn't have a Unlimited 8 or the galaxy ... my next step after the V11 was a JR 10z

Now don't get me wrong .. I am glad that modern techology has helped the progress of flybarless ...but don't put down the pioneers that did have trouble with them because the techology wasn't there yet.

I just am tired of these youngins that say ...what ,, why did you guys have such a hard time flying helicopters ??? they are easy ,, nothing to it !!!! So what is all this I have heard about the GMP Legend flybarless head being unstable and causing crashes?

Take away all the company research / support and internet knowledge base and all the electronic augmentation crap and lets see if they can fly it .... oh and don't forget ...to erase all their memory of atari , playstation and computer video gaming so they don't know what a joy stick is and then we can compare apples to apples

Old fart now gets off his soap box and puts on his flame proof suit and sluks to back of room to his little old corner ,,,far, far away

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03-07-2008 03:11 AM  10 years agoPost 10
TMoore

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Cookeville, TN

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You are right, the Century VII didn't have Expo but it did have dual rates. I can remember when I was flying the Horizon 60 with the CS5H I had expo turned all the way up and it flew great. When I switched it to the Century VII I almost pranged it the first time out because I was used to a lot of expo.

You may be getting the timelines a little out of kilter. The Legend was the last bird that GMP did and it came out back in the late 80's while the American Revolution stuff was in the mid 70's to early 80's.

Back when the Legend was flying the Robbe CSC-4 was just coming out and it was the first gov that actually worked.

TM

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03-07-2008 03:28 AM  10 years agoPost 11
whirlyspud

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USA

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I flew a legend flybarless for years. Once you got used to a few quirks it had it was no big deal. I was running about 1700 for the headspeed on mine.

Mike

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03-07-2008 09:46 AM  10 years agoPost 12
jczankl

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AZ

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Here is my two cents. I am flying a GMP Legend flybarless, with no gryo on the head, and no expo,DR, and absolutly no govenor. I have flown this thing in some pretty stiff winds.

I can't find anything bad to say about it. I believe it all has to do with set up. I am running original wood blades. You can find a video of it here on youtube.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ioSyQQxDbm8

I haven't flown much of anything else flybarless, so I only have experience with the Legend. I plan on making on of my Heli-boys flybarless.

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03-07-2008 02:47 PM  10 years agoPost 13
HFr

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Lagrange ,in USA

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The Legend was the last bird that GMP did and it came out back in the late 80's while the American Revolution stuff was in the mid 70's to early 80's.
American R/C helicotpers flybarless ...which was before the legends If I remember right
I think that is exactly what I said ???,,,, American R/C helicopters before GMP legend

I also remember the manual telling us to run it at around 1100 RPM . which I tried to do ...can't be sure ...we didn't have RPM meters back then yet !!!!
I know that at one funfly I got the saftey award ,,,as I stopped flying the contest because the bird was doing the death wobble during every round (and back then no one was sure what caused that ,and I hadn't been flying it long enough to find that out through experimentaion ) and they were all glad when I stopped flying it .Now days we know to up the RPM's to stop that ... and probably won't have been there at all as the Governor would have been set and it would have maintained the RPM's with the change in conditions going far away for a contest .

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03-07-2008 03:07 PM  10 years agoPost 14
TMoore

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Cookeville, TN

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The Legend had all the bad habits that flybarless heads are known for. When you start pushing it hard it will pitch up just all of them do. Do an auto, dump the collective hard to -5 or -6 and be prepared to hang on as the machine will pitch up or in this case tuck under. I've seen it happen. I'm not saying the machine isn't flyable but it is not going to fly like a flybar machine would and you need to take care when you fly it.

I flew flybarless Horizons from the start and no matter what you do with that machine, add weight to the blades or whatever and it still flew like a flybarless machine.

TM

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03-07-2008 05:21 PM  10 years agoPost 15
marcw

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Southern California

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This is the kind of specific feedback I have been looking for. Before this, I have seen only obscure references to strange flight characteristics attributed to the Legend flybarless head. I’d have to do some searching around, but I remember seeing a thread I think it was here on RR about a legend flybarless doing an uncontrolled dirt dive, plus another thread on the trex forums of another fellow who threw one of these heads on a trex 600E scaler like mine only to later switch it out to something else, calling the Legend head “unsatisfactory” or words to that effect.

This is not in my mind a question of modern technology today vs. old school GMP, but instead a question of the inherent design of the head itself and how it flies, despite the fact that we now have carbon blades and are safe to spin over 1,700 RPM. I am running “only” about 1,800 RPM in the Jet Ranger, by the way.

As I told JC, the Jetranger is set up just for cruising around, so Ill definitely keep TMoore’s advice and not go crazy with the 3D on this setup! But I have to say again, it seems to work great and im very happy with it (at least in this application).

The biggest advantage seems to be the employment of the mixer arms which create leverage against the blade grips, so that the swash servos do not have to do such heavy lifting, and the response is not so sensitive. If you go over and look at what the modern flybarless guys are doing, you will see that most of them simply connect the blade grips directly to the swash, then back it up with all sorts of complex gyros and electronics for better stability. The legend head strikes me as a more elegant solution, at least for a non-3D scale project like this.

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10-26-2008 11:15 PM  9 years agoPost 16
v22chap

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Granger, Indiana

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To revive an old thread ... I just got put in my place last month ,,
as I was one of the non belivers !!!

I found a decent used GMP flybarless head and put it on my Bergen Tazer and woooooooo . Right of ,,,the first hover , no blade tracking and I love it . Steady hover and controllable even up into FF .

Now the only thing Chris and I could find wrong was a little pitch up in loops and rolls and some in FF if you just let it do its thing ...but nothing you can't fly through . We put it through some mild forward and backward tumbles and it seemed just fine with it ... other than Chris wants to see if we can speed it up some . which I did by taking out a lot of expo and putting in more travel .. Chris is the "Tim Taylor" of the R/C world ,,,,, more power ,,,faster ,,futher ,, lower ,,,can that scale ship loop !!!!!!

I proceeded to move the blade grip arms into the center line of the main mast and do away with the delta and viola ... the pitch up in loops and roll is almost all gone.
I think you are going to see more of this old school flybarless in the next yr or two

Larry C ----------Bergen R/C helicopters

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01-05-2009 12:32 AM  9 years agoPost 17
choppertrike

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evansville, in, usa

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gmp legend flybarless,
i purchased one by mistake, on ebay, in perfect condition, i am a newbie, so would using a vbar or helicommand make it better for a startup pilot. i will work up to it over time, using smaller helis to learn on. if not i will part it out, or sell it. dont want to fly it as is. thanks

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01-05-2009 12:52 AM  9 years agoPost 18
jczankl

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AZ

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Yes Heli-Command or V-Bar will make flying it easy. But really not needed. As the GMP Head is very stable.

Post some pictures of your GMP Legend.

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01-05-2009 01:37 AM  9 years agoPost 19
marcw

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Southern California

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Hey Fellas:

I have since added a V-Bar to the Jetranger. That has made flying it much more scale-like and "relaxing" for crusing around and especially hovering (you dont have to keep making as many little corrections w/ the right stick), but like JC and Larry say, you really dont NEED electronic stabilization with the Legend Flybarless head.

Also, I have since swapped out the GMP ball links on the blade grips for the long Align ball links, so the geometry of the ball links in the head is much improved:

All my modern helis are flybarless now!
once you have experienced it, there's no going back!

Not to drift too far off topic, but Im even working on a flybarless Trex 250!!

Good luck with your Legend Flybarless project! It's a great unit...I have been very happy with it!

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01-05-2009 10:29 AM  9 years agoPost 20
v22chap

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Granger, Indiana

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Align ball links, so the geometry of the ball links in the head is much improved:
Beat me to it Marcw .. did that on m ine just before winter hit ... and it seems to help the ff pitchup tendency and in loops and rolls and tumbles

as far as the 250 flybarless ,, already beat you ..as I have been flying a Gaui 200 with 3 bladed head on for a yr now .I just added a sk 360 and it is a little better in forward flight now ....
These just about have to have the help as they are so twitchy to start out with .Well it maybe that these old eyes and hand reflexes just can't keep up with these little things

Larry C ----------Bergen R/C helicopters

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