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HomeAircraftHelicopterGasser Model RC HelicoptersOther › What is the Operating Temperature for Zenoah Engines
03-06-2008 12:55 AM  10 years agoPost 21
FCM

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Surrey, England

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Why do you say the plug looked bad? There were absolutely no metal particles on the plug. Those were only light reflections on the picture.
Well they looked like metal particle to me and the fact that the engine has seized sure sounds suspicious.

The engine could have a stuck piston ring. I did mention this before. I had a similar incident years ago with one of my G230 engines. The engine started making metal, so much of it that it killed the plug. On strip I found the ring really stuck and the two ends of it had broken off and gone out of the exhaust port slightly scoring the bore. I still have the cylinder and it still runs okay with a new piston/ring.

Mine was caused by running too much oil at elevated temperatures with a pretty standard carbi setting.
Paul, when the engine is in the heli how do you tell the RPM sag when setting the high needle? Head loaders?? On board tach?? Or fly at full collective for a thousand feet and guess at it from the sound of the engine.
Listen to the engine as it climbs. It helps if you are flyingin 33C heat most of the time

Paul.

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03-06-2008 06:02 PM  10 years agoPost 22
AceBird

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Utica, NY USA

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Listen to the engine as it climbs. It helps if you are flyingin 33C heat most of the time
Paul, I afraid this is not a good method for a newbie or someone just coming over to the gasser side from nitro or electrics. Because of the droplar effect the engine will sound like it is decreasing in RPM when it is perfectly constant as it goes away from your ear. You would have to do a power climb hundreds of times with a perfectly adjusted heli in order to learn what that sounds like in order to make a decision on if it’s right or not. How does a newbie do that with no experience on a gasser and probably something not set right to begin with? It’s pretty much impossible to get it right for a beginner.

Ace
What could be more fun?

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03-07-2008 01:22 AM  10 years agoPost 23
xcellgasman101

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WOODWARD, OKLA....

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Here you go AceDird,,, If your going to fly gas.. Learn how to read a plug,, its not hard,, This is from the EXPERT'S.. But do what you want... This is about Boats.. but heli is the same when it comes to setting your needles......
Basic carburetor tuning...

First thing first! Find out the model of carburetor you have on your engine and use known baseline settings to start. Fine tune from there...

Low Speed: There are different techniques to tune the low speed needle. I don't use any fancy techniques. I use the manufacturer's setting and fine tune from there to get a good crisp low to mid speed transition when the boat is on it's stand. Ultimate fine tuning must be done by actually running the boat and noting throttle response from low to mid speed.

If you have no idea where to start with the low speed setting, you can try this technique. Make sure the High Speed needle is opened about 1.5 turns. Completely close the LS needle then open it 1.5 turns and start the engine (give it throttle if required to get it to start). If it won't run, try opening LS needle a bit more, continue until it will at least run. I don't think I have ever seen a Walbro carb on our motors that will require much less than 1 turn open on the Low needle to run. When you get the engine to idle, keep it at idle and slowly close the LS needle until the motor begins to "four stroke". You will know what this means when you hear it. It will actually begin to sound like a four stroke motor. From that point open the LS needle about 1/8 turn at a time until it idles ok again and transitions from low to mid without much hesitation.

High Speed: The high speed needle is, in my opinion, virtually impossible to properly tune without actually running the boat on water. When the engine is put under load (boat on water) it will lean out a bit. You can however start with known baseline settings and do a few quick "blips" of the throttle and adjust the carb so that it tends to "clean out" at full throttle and not bog or hesitate too much. The best advice here is to keep it rich rather than lean.

The final and optimal tuning is done by running the boat on the water and reading the spark plug. Start with a new sparkplug or use a wire brush to clean the electrode and ceramic insulator on your used sparkplug if you can't find a new one. Try to start with a slightly rich setting. Launch the boat and run it for a few full throttle laps and take the boat in. Remove the spark plug and inspect the electrode and insulator (the insulator is white when new). You are looking to get a tan coloured tip. If the tip is black or dark brown your high speed needle is too rich. Close it (Clockwise) 1/8 turn and run it a few more laps and check it again. If the tip of the spark plug is "grayish" color or white, the HS needle is too lean. Open it (CCW) and run it a few more laps before checking again. You might want to open it more than 1/8 turn to try and get on the rich side and tune down from there to be safe. Continue until the spark plug tip remains a nice tan color. This is a safe setting that will yield good performance. You can venture and run a bit leaner but remember that too lean a setting can quickly result into an engine rebuild job! The fuel in our boats also supplies the lubrication for the engines so leaning the fuel mixture also reduces the available lubricant to the engine.

Note: with the newer spark plugs and the better quality synthetic oils most of us now use, reading the spark plug can be a little difficult at times. It might be necessary to run the boat longer in order to get accurate readings...for this reason it is better to start with a rich setting and work your way down to avoid running the engine under lean conditions for extended periods.
Hope this helps.. XGM/VGM

John Crotts
www.soonerhelicamproductions.com

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03-07-2008 01:48 AM  10 years agoPost 24
FCM

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Surrey, England

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Because of the droplar effect the engine will sound like it is decreasing in RPM when it is perfectly constant as it goes away from your ear. You would have to do a power climb hundreds of times
No you don't. Nearly the whole world uses this method of tuning the high needle but you think it doesn't work. This is FINE TUNING the high needle and it is a simple everyday activity - not rocket science.

I agree with that quote about modern oils John. You are not going to get immediate feedback from the plug colour. Unless you are running a heavy heli and or a TRM in a Excell, you will not be able to use the plug colour alone to tune your high needle. That's okay though because if in any doubt run the top needles slightly rich.

Paul.

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03-07-2008 02:32 PM  10 years agoPost 25
Shiro Muji

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Japan

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I thought the factory setting for LS needle is 1.5 turns and you can lean it to 1 and 3/4. the HS needle is 1.5 turns. if I open the LS needle to more than 1.5 Turns it becomes to rich and won't even start.

Maxum with Hanson 3D Max, Maxum Nitro, Maxum 30.5cc modified engine, RH Generator, Sceadu .50Hyper

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03-07-2008 02:56 PM  10 years agoPost 26
FCM

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Surrey, England

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1 3/4 is richer than 1 1/2 not leaner. Yes, if you richen out these engines much more than 1 1/2 turns out then it will be running very rich indeed. From my G230/260 experience and reading what the PUH flyers do, the normal needle range is anything between 1 1/4 and 1 1/2 turns open. Can't remember anyone running richer than 1 1/2 open unless there is a fuel feed issue.

Paul.

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03-07-2008 03:12 PM  10 years agoPost 27
Shiro Muji

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Japan

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Sorry. . . difficulty with numbers. FCM is right.

Maxum with Hanson 3D Max, Maxum Nitro, Maxum 30.5cc modified engine, RH Generator, Sceadu .50Hyper

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03-07-2008 05:46 PM  10 years agoPost 28
AceBird

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Utica, NY USA

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Nearly the whole world uses this method of tuning the high needle but you think it doesn't work. This is FINE TUNING the high needle and it is a simple everyday activity - not rocket science.
Hmm, I seem to remember you admitting frying and engine early on in your carrier. How well did that method work for you then? How about all the other people that have fried engines, is it working for them? Maybe it’s time the “whole world” changed something.
If your going to fly gas.. Learn how to read a plug,, its not hard,, This is from the EXPERT'S..

with the newer spark plugs and the better quality synthetic oils most of us now use, reading the spark plug can be a little difficult at times.
Hey buddy, you having trouble understanding English? You made a statement that is contrarily to what the expert said!!!! You didn’t have to high light it though, I read and understood the original text before you copied and pasted it into this post.
Launch the boat and run it for a few full throttle laps and take the boat in.
This is precisely my point a few full throttle laps doesn’t equate to a four second power climb. You have to keep the throttle open for a period of time so the engine heat stabilizes in order to tell if you are rich enough. A short burst basically checks “transition” which is the low needle setting not the high. The method for adjusting the needles on these small engines in written in manuals across the globe from every manufacturer, including Zenoah. It is the method I use and I don’t think I am alone.

Ace
What could be more fun?

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03-07-2008 06:04 PM  10 years agoPost 29
FCM

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Surrey, England

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Yes Ace, I damaged an engine 5 years ago flying a heavweight cameraship. I learnt from it though and try and stop other people from making the same mistakes.

Because you can't even get on the high needles when you fly, you have come up with your proceedure where you tie the heli down and run it flat out. That's great for you but most people who post on here can already fly well enough to do a high power climb and interpret the sound and behaviour of their engine after a little guidance.

You continually try and make this seem difficult to do don't you? I'm here to tell everyone who reads this that it isn't difficult and you do not have to strap your heli down and run it flat out risking life and limb just to set the high needle on your carbi.

Paul.

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03-07-2008 07:01 PM  10 years agoPost 30
xcellgasman101

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WOODWARD, OKLA....

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AceDird,, You will never get it,, But other's will!!!!,, that's the people we are trying to help.. Not the Know it all you think you are,,
Hey buddy, you having trouble understanding English?
Nope,, My english is very good,, You need some schooling..
You made a statement that is contrarily to what the expert said!!!!
Where?? are you referring to :::::::
Note: with the newer spark plugs and the better quality synthetic oils most of us now use, reading the spark plug can be a little difficult at times. It might be necessary to run the boat longer in order to get accurate readings...for this reason it is better to start with a rich setting and work your way down to avoid running the engine under lean conditions for extended periods.
Why don't you quote the whole line?? Troll
It still isn't hard, to learn how to read a plug,,
This is precisely my point a few full throttle laps doesn’t equate to a four second power climb. You have to keep the throttle open for a period of time so the engine heat stabilizes in order to tell if you are rich enough.
Thats right,, You cant fly in FF so you cant check to see what you plug is doing,, But the rest of us can,, Go Figure,,

Sure have missed you the last week.. NOT.. You still post about things you have no Idea of what really works,, Now go out and learn how to fly first,, then come here and post,, Maybe you will have something to say, that's worth hearing,, XGM/VGM

John Crotts
www.soonerhelicamproductions.com

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03-07-2008 09:28 PM  10 years agoPost 31
AceBird

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Utica, NY USA

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You continually try and make this seem difficult to do don't you? I'm here to tell everyone who reads this that it isn't difficult and you do not have to strap your heli down and run it flat out risking life and limb just to set the high needle on your carbi.
Well I don’t think I am making it difficult at all I am following the procedures written by most engine manufacturers. You don’t need to go flat out, ¾ throttle is more than enough to get the fuel coming from the high needle port and not from the low needle port. Opening the throttle more does not change the mixture ratio, it stays the same.

Now I just read recently on the trex forum where a person ran negative pitches at full throttle. Is this risking life and limb? Maybe something like that could be used to load the rotors when you are trying to test the high needle setting?

BTW almost any damn fool can do power climb outs. It doesn’t take any great piloting skills to do them.

Ace
What could be more fun?

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03-08-2008 01:42 AM  10 years agoPost 32
FCM

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Surrey, England

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Now I just read recently on the trex forum where a person ran negative pitches at full throttle. Is this risking life and limb? Maybe something like that could be used to load the rotors when you are trying to test the high needle setting?
Yes, you could do this but running a lot of negative pitch on the ground can make for an unstable, shaking heli due to the turbulence it creates.
BTW almost any damn fool can do power climb outs. It doesn’t take any great piloting skills to do them.
True enough - it's the coming back down in one piece that takes the skill

Safest place for a helicopter is in the air.

Paul.

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03-08-2008 01:05 PM  10 years agoPost 33
AceBird

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Utica, NY USA

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it's the coming back down in one piece that takes the skill
coming back down is as easy as going up. It's the stopping before you hit the ground that takes the skill. so if you can hover and not loose orientation you can fly. Orientation is the key, just like a plank.

Ace
What could be more fun?

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03-08-2008 02:24 PM  10 years agoPost 34
GyroFreak

rrProfessor

Orlando Florida ...28N 81W

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Grey is under 2nd fin from spark plug
Green is near crankcase.
Red is RPM

Zenoha 230 in MA Xcell Spectra G.
Amsoil, 3 oz to U.S. gallon of Ozark camp fuel. (40 to 1)

I think about the hereafter. I go somewhere to get something, then wonder what I'm here after ?

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03-08-2008 02:59 PM  10 years agoPost 35
xcellgasman101

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WOODWARD, OKLA....

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GyroFreak,,,, Thats one of the best post about this thread,, Thats just how a plug is supposed to look,, Great post.. Thanks,, I take it that you read your plug too.. XGM/VGM

John Crotts
www.soonerhelicamproductions.com

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03-08-2008 03:53 PM  10 years agoPost 36
AceBird

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Utica, NY USA

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GyroFreak,

Take it one step further and give us some event marks from 300 sec to 360 seconds on what you were doing. The RPM changed from 7000 to 12500 which to me is quite a big swing. Even though the RPM was increasing so was the temperature. Maybe you should work on your curves.

I wonder what the plug would have looked like if you continued to run in the high temperature range for 5 minutes more. My point is the color of that plug due to running in the 7000-9000 RPM range or what? You don’t know. Is the higher RPM due to a leaning condition of the high needle? Who knows? That plug doesn’t tell you squat.

It looks like you landed shortly after the high RPM run and you can see the temperatures going all over the place so it proves that reading the temperature after a run is fruitless.

Ace
What could be more fun?

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03-08-2008 05:57 PM  10 years agoPost 37
xcellgasman101

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WOODWARD, OKLA....

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The only thing fruitless here is you AceDird,,
That plug is telling, him, he is good on the needles,,
Maybe you should work on your curves
Maybe you should work on learning to fly a heli...

All top machanic's in all kinds of raceing or engine builders.... READ THERE PLUGS.. Why,, Because they want to know what is going on with the engine,, It's the only way to tell for sure whats happening,, XGM/VGM

John Crotts
www.soonerhelicamproductions.com

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03-08-2008 08:59 PM  10 years agoPost 38
GyroFreak

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Orlando Florida ...28N 81W

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Thanks XCELLGASMAN, it's nice to know some appreciate others posts.

That temperature reading was awhile back. I landed and changed my pitch curves and/or throttle curve, thats the reason for the sudden rpm increase on the chart. I like to run at 11500 but I was till searching for the right curves. The plug was after several gallons, I check after at least two or three tank fulls and it stays very consistent. My engine was tuned by Toxic Al and has been running very well. Periodically I remove the exhaust and check the piston wall for burn or scoring and it always looks new, so I'm not changing anything.
Yes, when you land if you shut the engine down you will get a big temp surge so I normally let it idle for 30 sec or so before shutdown. Notice the idle between 360 sec and 400 sec.
That plug reading was taken after several mins of hoovering then immediate shutdown to get a reading on the plug.
I posted this chart to show what cylinder temp are like during flight. I do not claim this is correct for every body, but it is working for me.
I will continue to read my plug after several flights.
That plug doesn’t tell you squat.
Wow Ace, thats kind of brutal. Nearly every one else uses the plug as a gauge to rich/lean running indicator. You must be having a bad day.

I think about the hereafter. I go somewhere to get something, then wonder what I'm here after ?

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03-08-2008 10:06 PM  10 years agoPost 39
AceBird

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Utica, NY USA

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That temperature reading was awhile back. I landed and changed my pitch curves and/or throttle curve, thats the reason for the sudden rpm increase on the chart.
I didn't say I didn't like your post, quite the contrary. I was trying to interpret the data. Apparently I was right, the curves were off. Had you continued with these curves the plug may have looked different even though the needles were set right.

BTW showing two forms of data that is not related to each other(plug pic and graph pic) is called adulterated data and would be thrown out in any study.

I am having a fine day.

Ace
What could be more fun?

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03-08-2008 11:01 PM  10 years agoPost 40
erichevy

rrVeteran

Zevenhoven The Netherlands

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Hi xcellgasman101!

I see Aceboob is busting you're balls here too!
I thought he was only offending me (another thread) but it's his way of cummunicating I suppose, he doesn't know any better.
And Aceboob is not something I came up with, it is something I read here on RR. before.

Eric.

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