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Blade CP+ › The Brushless Road
03-03-2008 02:48 PM  10 years agoPost 1
vidmarv

rrApprentice

ft walton beach, FL

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OK, so I've upgraded the old PB+ to a 3700 brushless motor with the Eflite ESC, and a dual motor tail on the stock 3 in 1 and a G90 gyro, on a DX7. I upgraded for a couple of reasons, one of which was to try and correct a tail problem. It would come up, hover nicely for about 30 secs. then start a slow counter clockwise spin from which there was no recovery (except to touch back down). Anyway, after putting all this together, I still have the same problem. So, now I'm wondering...

Since I'm using the G90, I think the problem must either be with the motors on the tail or the 3 in 1 that I'm using as an ESC. I've taken the gear off the the tail and confirmed that both of the motors are spinning. Any guesses from you guys on which might be the problem? Any test you can think of to try confirm why I've got this slow spin?

I disconnected the gyro lead from the receiver and am setting the gain manually on the G90 itself. Not using the programming on the DX7 to check it. Am I right in thinking this is the only adjustment now for the tail? I have the proportion and gain on the 3 in 1 set completely to the counter-clockwise position (off) so it shouldn't be interfering with the gyro.

I am thinking of trying an ESC for the tail and taking out the 3 in 1 completely. Is it OK to use an ESC on the dual motor brushed tail set-up? Or will I need to convert to a brushless motor on the tail?

I HAVE NOT tried to set the trim on the tail as it's my understanding this is a heading hold gyro and this adjustment does not work for them. Is this right?

Many thanks for any input.

VM

Perfectly sliced air every time!

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03-03-2008 06:31 PM  10 years agoPost 2
Micro-Maniac

rrElite Veteran

Pasco,Washington Formerly: Captain Chaos

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I'd try a GWS 5A ESC - At this point all you're using of the 3-in-1 is the tail ESC which is crappy anyways and won't allow the G90 to run in digital mode

You're fine to leave the gyro signal wire unplugged and adjusting the gain from the gyro itself - It's stuck in HH mode like that but I don't think you have much use for rate mode with this setup

The gyro has it's own center that you do need to trim the radio to which shouldn't take more than a few clicks to find zero rotation at first but may need a few more clicks later in flight - The G90 has a mysterious drift issue - Other than that there really isn't any other adjustments you need to do to the tail

I happen to think the direct drive tail is at least simpler than the dual motor tail if not better even so you might look into the that - http://www.bphobbies.com/view.asp?i...0098&pid=gws100

Both direct drive and dual tail motors do wear out periodically so that may be the cause of your problem - I'd start with replacing the junky 3-in-1 with a GWS tail ESC so you can at least run the G90 in digital mode then try changing out the motors for fresh motor(s)

Brushless tail isn't necessary just more economical in the long run - You can have a brushless tail for the price of burning through 3 or 4 brushed motors and it'll pretty much go forever unless you manage to damage it but may still come out ahead even having to replace it from some unfortunate incident

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03-03-2008 07:41 PM  10 years agoPost 3
Skarn

rrVeteran

Pasadena, MD

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I agree with Micro....get the 5am GWS BRUSHED esc for the tail if you want to keep it brushed. But remember to DISABLE the BEC on the tail ESC if you are going to do that! I literally had flames shooting out of mine this weekend because I forgot to. It's the middle red wire in the lead going to the receiver....just cut it.

BUT if you are going to keep your 3in1, have you turned both POTs all the way down since you are now using the G90?

Also, there are multiple versions of the ESC...get the GWS (Li) version for lipo (as long as you are using lipos)

Good luck!
Skarn

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03-03-2008 09:27 PM  10 years agoPost 4
vsnyder8

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Ft Wayne, IN

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If you are considering going brushless later, think hard now. the esc for the brushed motor will be scrap later if you want to go brushless. I went brushless with mine, you have more power available with brushless plus they last a long time.

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03-04-2008 04:15 PM  10 years agoPost 5
vidmarv

rrApprentice

ft walton beach, FL

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Bad Tail motor
OK, after working through everything once, I went back and replaced the tail motors (dual brushed motor setup) and it works.

Although both motors spun when current was applied, I guess one was not quite strong enough to pull the load.

Does anyone know a way to test the motors to see if they're strong enough?

The only difference I could tell was a slightly "crunchy" noise on the bad motors vs. the new ones. I will remember that sound, it cost me several hours of tinkering, though I think I understand the ESC set-up much better now.

I kept the stock 3 in 1 as an ESC for the tail. Although I have a brushless ESC, I am still uncertain how the servo's will get power. I assume they currently get power via the 3 in 1. In the setup I have now, the main (brushless motor) has the BEC wire disconnected from the input to the Rx. Perhaps someone can enlighten me on that one? Must I hook up the BEC line from the main motor ESC (35amp) or should I hook up the BEC circuit on the tail ESC (10amp)? Neither? Both? Either way of course, I am thinking about removing the stock 3 in 1 and replacing the tail motors with a direct drive single motor brushless setup.

Wondering if anyone had any thoughts on that?

BTW, the brushless main motor with the G90 and dual motor tail setup flies much, much better. Presently using the stock head with plastic blades. Very stable, for a Blade anyway.

VM

Perfectly sliced air every time!

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03-04-2008 04:34 PM  10 years agoPost 6
Micro-Maniac

rrElite Veteran

Pasco,Washington Formerly: Captain Chaos

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One or the other but not both just as you have it now - The reason you have to disconnect the BEC from the main BL ESC is because of the 3-in-1 supplying the BEC and how - The 3-in-1 BEC seems to somehow loop through both the throttle channel and rudder channel in order for the 3-in-1 to work properly but once you replace the 3-in-1 with another separate ESC you'll still just need one BEC connected on either main or tail ESC but doesn't matter which

I haven't actually tried dual motors myself as that looked like more work and soldering than I cared to do on a regular basis (I installed a servo plug at my BL tail motor and use servo extension leads so I don't do any soldering at all anymore) plus I've never seen any videos of the dual tail being put to the extremes that I've seen and experienced with the DD tail - I honestly don't think they have the same performance capabilities

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03-04-2008 09:29 PM  10 years agoPost 7
vsnyder8

rrVeteran

Ft Wayne, IN

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If you have any questions about setup with all brushless and esc's with no 3:1 chech out this site:

http://www.helihobby.com/html/separate_electronics.html

Van

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03-04-2008 10:31 PM  10 years agoPost 8
zaw

rrKey Veteran

Lebanon, NH - USA

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My BL setup
After a few brushed motors burn out on my CP2 I decided to go brushless and all separate. I got Futaba PCM receiver came with my EXH so I use that. With cheap ESC and Cheap Motor, Head speed is really fast even at 20% throttle.
I'm using a esky brushed ESC for the tail. For twin motor and stock single motor it work great. I went and get a GWS kit with one motor and 2 press on orange props, tried those but tail hold on the ground but soon as I get a lift heli start to spin counter clock wise. I got a bunch of tail motor coming so I'm just going to do dual tail for now. May be try Direct Drive again with bigger props.

I also have a belt drive heli but I'm still crashing, running into stuff and tail sliding shaft bends etc PITA to fix them, I think motors are a lot easier for me at my level.

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03-04-2008 10:35 PM  10 years agoPost 9
Micro-Maniac

rrElite Veteran

Pasco,Washington Formerly: Captain Chaos

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Are you trimming the tail to stop the tail from spinning on the ground? Because that would cause it to be fine on the ground but rotate in the air like you're describing - If you're using the G90 zero your rudder trim and try to fly it The gyro behaves different in the air vs on the ground

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03-05-2008 05:23 AM  10 years agoPost 10
zaw

rrKey Veteran

Lebanon, NH - USA

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I'm using Esky Gyro and its hooked to Ch5 and controlling the rates from radio. I didn't even thought of trying it without even that plug in. I'm waiting for my Main Gear and Motor Pinions soon as I get them, I'll try that.

I like my trims set at 0.

I fix my friend Blade 400 tonight and I learn a lot. Swash plate was setup to on Servo Killer Mode finally I took it home from him and take my time fixing it, mixing it up properly, where he was using SUB Trims to fix the problem doesn't work too well.

I got it to fly it wasn't holding the tail will with CH5 connected. After I disconnected it work better but still spin, so I set the gain to mid point and adjusted the linkage until it stop spin then I turn it up a tiny bit its hold the tail real well and I was beable to point the nose where I wanted. then battery died. I was doing all that in my basement and this thing is way too big for it.

Man, I learn a lot about heli today, how to setup swash plate properly, pitch etc.

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03-05-2008 05:34 AM  10 years agoPost 11
Micro-Maniac

rrElite Veteran

Pasco,Washington Formerly: Captain Chaos

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Well the BCP obviously doesn't have tail linkage to adjust so some radio trim is likely necessary to eliminate rotation with some gyros

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03-05-2008 01:40 PM  10 years agoPost 12
BOB WHO?

rrKey Veteran

Downey, Ca.

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Micro
I learned something new from you here. Are saying that with separate escs one can run a g90 in digital mode? I have a g90 in one of my bl cp pros and don't like it very well. For some reason that I don't remember now, I thought you were not supposed to run it in dm. Does running it in digital make the tail hold better?

BTW Guys
I got many, maybe most, of my set up information and tips from Micro Maniac. My two brushless cp pros absolutely SCREAM! I recommend taking his generous advice.

Bob

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03-05-2008 04:27 PM  10 years agoPost 13
Micro-Maniac

rrElite Veteran

Pasco,Washington Formerly: Captain Chaos

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Yeah the 3-in-1 ESCs can't handle a gyro's digital mode frame rate - I don't even think they could handle my GY401's analog mode - Get rid of the 3-in-1 for a separate tail ESC and you can run your gyro in digital mode for way less deadband resulting in firmer tail hold - For a GY401 that's 270hz digital vs 70hz analog - I'm not sure what the G90's analog rate is but it's digital rate is supposedly about same as the GY401

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03-06-2008 01:00 AM  10 years agoPost 14
BOB WHO?

rrKey Veteran

Downey, Ca.

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Thanks Micro
I'll try it.

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03-06-2008 02:52 PM  10 years agoPost 15
vidmarv

rrApprentice

ft walton beach, FL

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G90 Drift in digital mode?
I haven't put the esc on the tail yet (still using the 3 in 1 and looking at BL motor/prop choices) but wondered...

Does the G90 work in digital mode controlling the ESC for the tail motor? I know that the 401 requires a digital servo to work in digital mode, but since the BCP doesn't have a tail servo, will it work?

Does this cut down any on the "drift" issue that I've heard others speak of regarding the G90?

Thanks for the info!

VM

Perfectly sliced air every time!

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03-06-2008 04:07 PM  10 years agoPost 16
Micro-Maniac

rrElite Veteran

Pasco,Washington Formerly: Captain Chaos

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I've ran in digital mode with G90 2100T and GY401 ever since getting rid of the 3-in-1 for separates - My G90 drifts in every mode 3-in-1 or separates it just seems to forget where it's center is and requires trimming and/or rebooting to stop the drifting for a couple minutes

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03-06-2008 11:00 PM  10 years agoPost 17
BOB WHO?

rrKey Veteran

Downey, Ca.

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Micro
I tried to run the g90 in digital mode and 'no dice'. I have separates: bl main and the tail esc is an avionics 'pilot 14' (14 amp). The tail motor is gws direct drive. the esc initializes then the motor just stutters and shakes but won't run. What do you make of that?

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03-06-2008 11:17 PM  10 years agoPost 18
vidmarv

rrApprentice

ft walton beach, FL

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Hey Micro
When you say "reboot" I assume you mean landing, unplugging the battery and re-initializing for it to lock in again?

Hadn't experienced that, but then again I'm still deep in the woods of learning.

VM

Perfectly sliced air every time!

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03-06-2008 11:30 PM  10 years agoPost 19
Micro-Maniac

rrElite Veteran

Pasco,Washington Formerly: Captain Chaos

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BOB WHO?
I guess your ESC just doesn't like digital mode either (low switching rate?) - I've had no problems running digital mode with my GWS and CC ESCs - Running digital mode with the 3-in-1 the tail would wag huge and erratic rendering the tail uncontrollable

vidmarv
Yeah before each flight I'd have to return the trim to near zero then from landing and rebooting before I've flown long enough to have to trim it more I discovered it seems to never need trimmed more right after a fresh reboot - The longer I'd fly it the more trim it'd need to counter the drift - Probably not real useful info as no one is likely to choose landing and rebooting over a few clicks of trim a couple times during flight but just an oddity of the G90 I've experienced and thought I'd share

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