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HomeMy Site✈️Aircraft🚁HelicopterHelicopter Main Discussion › What if you had a Heli (electric) on the space station, what would be the settings
02-10-2008 02:23 AM  11 years ago
spork

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Mountain View, CA

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torque is related to pitch.
That's the whole problem right there. I think I was absent the day they covered torque and drag when I was getting my master's in aero.
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02-10-2008 02:25 AM  11 years ago
Yug

rrMaster

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Bollocks to torque and stuff, the gyro will take care of that if it's setup right. What's great is the 3D capability without gravity to contend with. Inertia is still inertia.
Rockon 'SPACE HELIS' where the blades deal with the manipulation of superstrings.
Vegetable rights and Peace
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02-10-2008 02:27 AM  11 years ago
spork

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Bollocks to torque and stuff, the gyro will take care of that if it's setup right.
Are you serious?
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02-10-2008 02:29 AM  11 years ago
GimbalFan (RIP)

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Are you serious?
Guy is NEVER serious at 2:30a Greenwich Meander Time.
op-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-t
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02-10-2008 02:29 AM  11 years ago
"Cam"

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UK

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Am I the casue of this?
http://www.runryder.com/t407375p1/

A normal heli with the tail rotor below the main blades will cause the heli to roll to the right - this is torque about the boom axis - and this is directly balanced by left cyclic from the flybar.

The other part of the tail rotor force is trying to push the heli to the left - this is a linear force with nothing to counteract it - so my estimate is the heli will drift left. This is usually counteracted by right cyclic BUT with the heli leaning just to the right both the tail fan and the main blades re in fact lifting the heli slightly.

My conclusion is to hover in zero G the heli will need a smidge of negative pitch. And it will stay still. All forces are equal.

I think if you look at all the couple forces, the tail moment and tail gyroscopic couples, everything is balanced.

Try not to get into a circular argument by thinking about it too much.

Solution: Get a MaxiJoker.
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02-10-2008 02:36 AM  11 years ago
Invrted1

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Cincinnati, Ohio

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OK OK Spork you are smarter than everyone here, that make you happy? Now how about we let the thread move a little farther?
Why would there be any pitch at all while attempting to be motionless?
I am trying to think about what it would be like to fly around, with very little pitch needed. I think that you would only need enough to overcome the inertia from the last input, right?
Except upon spool-up, torque is entirely related to drag, whether in one-G or zero-G. Drag amount changes with changes in pitch, but it is drag, not pitch, which causes the torque
I completely forgot about the drag
Rockon 'SPACE HELIS' where the blades deal with the manipulation of superstrings.
Now we're talking! I wonder what Michio would say about that?
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02-10-2008 02:43 AM  11 years ago
Yug

rrMaster

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Tell you what..... doing the Klein in zero gravity would be sooo much easier. Speak to the heli, it obeys

Greenwhich what how whenever whichart though whoever fish 'n chips
Vegetable rights and Peace
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02-10-2008 02:47 AM  11 years ago
spork

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Mountain View, CA

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A normal heli with the tail rotor below the main blades will cause the heli to roll to the right
The roll to the right is not related to the position of the tail rotor relative to the mains (or to the C.G.) in a typical heli in 1G. This is easy to show if you care to see it.
My conclusion is to hover in zero G the heli will need a smidge of negative pitch. And it will stay still. All forces are equal.
Not true. That will give you a negative force along the main shaft as well as a force along the tail-rotor shaft. Those two forces are at 90 degrees and therefore can never cancel each other out.
Try not to get into a circular argument by thinking about it too much.
Yes, but you do have to think about it just enough.
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02-10-2008 02:50 AM  11 years ago
GimbalFan (RIP)

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Big Coppitt Key, FL

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Try not to get into a circular argument
Let's see -- mainrotors rotating in a circle -- tailrotors rotating in a circle . . . Nope, there's no way to avoid a circular argument about THIS.
op-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-t
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02-10-2008 02:51 AM  11 years ago
Yug

rrMaster

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Hold on, are we talking conventional helis or flybarless ?Vegetable rights and Peace
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02-10-2008 03:13 AM  11 years ago
Invrted1

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Try not to get into a circular argument
Sorry guys, the whole circular thing is unavoidable.

But really, what about the counter-rotating blades? There would be no tail rotor torque to offset, and mainblade torque cancels itself, right?
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02-10-2008 03:17 AM  11 years ago
Yug

rrMaster

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Well that's why I brought up the flybarless thing where the 3D stability is stabalised in all 3 axis.Vegetable rights and Peace
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02-10-2008 03:24 AM  11 years ago
spork

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Mountain View, CA

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Hold on, are we talking conventional helis or flybarless ?
Either way. With a conventional heli (single set of main blades, and single set of tail blades) you'd suffer the problems described above. That design takes advantage of gravity, allowing the mains to counter the side force of the tail with only a slight lean to the right. It could also counter the tail side force while in accelerated flight (e.g. big sweeping turns etc.) The only way I can see to manage forward flight in such a situation is to bank 90 degrees to right, followed by a 90 degree left bank. You could approach your target in a serpentine fashion.
But really, what about the counter-rotating blades? There would be no tail rotor torque to offset, and mainblade torque cancels itself, right?
Counter rotating mains would work fine. With both at 0-pitch you'd have a "hover". You could yaw the heli by having a tail in both front and back. The interesting thing in this situation is that a "coordinated" turn would not have a bank-angle per-se. If you wanted to make even a mild turn to the right, you'd bank 90 degrees to the right. This is because the gravity vector is not there to add to your acceleration vector. So if you think of a coordinated turn as a turn that pushes your butt directly into your seat (instead of any sideways force) all turns would consist of a bank, followed by direct aft cyclic. You'd always be turning about a point that lies in the heli frame's vertical plane (remember, there's no gravity, so there's no "real" vertical plane).
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02-10-2008 03:42 AM  11 years ago
Invrted1

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all turns would consist of a bank, followed by direct aft cyclic. You'd always be turning about a point that lies in the heli frame's vertical plane (remember, there's no gravity, so there's no "real" vertical plane).
That makes perfect sense to me, because thats how I fly airplanes anyway, I never use the rudder.

So any "upright" orientation changes would be made by only the front and rear "tails", right?

Other than overcoming inertia, hard turns could be made at speed at almost 90 degrees, if I understand this correctly.
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02-10-2008 03:52 AM  11 years ago
Nitrohuffer

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Awesome pot talk!
I bring nothing to the table.
Lungs transformed to take in water.
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02-10-2008 04:02 AM  11 years ago
spork

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That makes perfect sense to me, because thats how I fly airplanes anyway, I never use the rudder.
Sort of the same and sort of different. When flying fast you can get away with no rudder. But a coordinated turn in an airplane is still usually less than 90 degrees of bank (always a little less if not climbing or diving).
So any "upright" orientation changes would be made by only the front and rear "tails", right?
The front and rear tails would control yaw only - in other words which direction you're facing. In zero-G there is no "upright". So whatever point you wanted to shoot towards you could simply roll until that point was in your frame's vertical plane, then pull aft cyclic until you were heading directly at it (assuming you started with forward speed). But that's where it gets really weird. Once you were flying directly at it, you'd push forward cyclic until your main-shaft was pointing directly at the target, and fly toward it with your main-shaft pointing at it. Remember you don't need any lift - your mains are just there to counter the drag from your velocity - so the main shaft will point at your target when flying "straight and level".
Other than overcoming inertia, hard turns could be made at speed at almost 90 degrees, if I understand this correctly.
I'm not sure if you mean 90 degrees of bank or if you mean sharp 90 degree turns. Your "bank" would always be aligned exactly into the turn (rather than offset toward the vertical as we do in 1G). But your turn radius would still be governed by velocity and how many G's the heli and pilot could sustain.
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02-10-2008 04:18 AM  11 years ago
Invrted1

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That last post is helping to make things very clear to me. I see now that turns could be any angle, once you overcome the energy of your current direction.
I'm not sure if you mean 90 degrees of bank or if you mean sharp 90 degree turns. Your "bank" would always be aligned exactly into the turn (rather than offset toward the vertical as we do in 1G). But your turn radius would still be governed by velocity and how many G's the heli and pilot could sustain.
I did mean sharp 90 degree turns, but I was thinking about it wrong.
Now I understand the mainshaft thing. That is some weird flying. This is great stuff, thanks for clearing this up for me Spork
Ain't this hobby great?
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02-10-2008 04:23 AM  11 years ago
eric_b

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LOL, with all the arguing, this thread is almost more fun to read than the aurora threads.
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02-10-2008 04:33 AM  11 years ago
Invrted1

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I don't know about the rest of you guys, but I learned a lot!
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02-10-2008 04:37 AM  11 years ago
GimbalFan (RIP)

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Big Coppitt Key, FL

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I've learned that some threads are enhanced by the lighting of a good cigar.op-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-t
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HomeMy Site✈️Aircraft🚁HelicopterHelicopter Main Discussion › What if you had a Heli (electric) on the space station, what would be the settings
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