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02-11-2008 03:33 AM  10 years agoPost 41
GimbalFan (RIP)

rrProfessor

Big Coppitt Key, FL

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Airing often on The National Geographic Channel starting tonight is a new two-hour documentary entitled "Six Degrees Could Change The World."

WELL worth watching.

op-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-t

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02-11-2008 03:38 AM  10 years agoPost 42
drdot

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So. California, Orange County.

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fwiw..

"Yeah, that's the problem. I don't know enough about the history of science."
I'd say that seems to be accurate...Magnitude isn't the issue..The fact that"Respected" scientists have been wrong about so many things in the past is prologue...Perhaps GW is real...Perhaps we are accelerating it...I don't know..And neither do they...

B.C.

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02-11-2008 03:58 AM  10 years agoPost 43
spork

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Mountain View, CA

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The fact that"Respected" scientists have been wrong about so many things in the past is prologue...
So, you'd rather offer a completely unfounded insult rather than step up to the challenge:
I defy you to identify a single instance in which something studied this thoroughly by this many scientists worldwide has later proven to be wrong.
Heck, you haven't even tried to offer ONE item that ONE respected scientist was wrong about. Please tell me again about how I know nothing of the history of science.

It's clear that you know very little about the process and method of science. In science, anecdotes aren't worth much. And failing to even offer an anecdote is worth even less.

By the way, 1stPlace, I see you've read my PM suggesting a way to orchestrate our wager. Whadayasay?

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02-11-2008 04:33 AM  10 years agoPost 44
drdot

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So. California, Orange County.

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fwiw..

I've posted here before..I post to stimulate, not educate...If you are interested, Scientific American has more than enough instances in the archives to prove my point..As I said, I'm not concerned with the size of the herd...And herd does adequately describe the GW sycophants..
Remember, I'm one of the guys screaming for alternative energy sources and at least electric conveyances..If for no other reason than to watch the Saudis eat sand!

B.C.

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02-11-2008 04:41 AM  10 years agoPost 45
spork

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Mountain View, CA

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I post to stimulate, not educate..
Can't think of a single case - huh?

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02-11-2008 04:43 AM  10 years agoPost 46
RonHill

rrVeteran

FLL, FL

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Learn to Fly
I do not support war in any way. Man should be able to solve problems with out killing or fighting.
Great idea...Get Bin Ladin to agree and we have a deal.

Like it or not....Some people hate the US and have sworn to destroy it in the name of God. You normally can't reason with religious zelots.
Biggest twit ever for president.
Thats an opinion...you are entitled to have one, but that does not make it true.
Most made fun of president.
Not by a long shot. Lincoln was considered to be an idiot. Nixon...well, he was Nixon. Ford and all the golf jokes. Carter was the P-nut guy. Reagan was the guy asleep at the wheel. Bush was the "wuss". Clinton was to busy dipping cigars. Bush 2 is just another in a LONG line of Presidents that are made fun of.

The next President will be made fun of as well...No matter who it is. One reason it seems like the more modern Prez's are made more fun of is due to the internet and the increase in exposure.

spork
Heck, you haven't even tried to offer ONE item that ONE respected scientist was wrong about.
1. The Earth is the center of the universe.
2. The Earth is flat.

Theres two. Both widely held and both claimed by the most respected scientists of their time.

Now, I personally feel that GW is real and we contribute to it. But to claim that scientist's are always correct is not logical in any way and totaly ignoring history. And honestly, I can remember being told we were getting ready for a new *ice* age....So scientists were either wrong then, or now.

From 1974:

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/a...,944914,00.html
Since the 1940s the mean global temperature has dropped about 2.7° F. Although that figure is at best an estimate, it is supported by other convincing data. When Climatologist George J. Kukla of Columbia University's Lamont-Doherty Geological Observatory and his wife Helena analyzed satellite weather data for the Northern Hemisphere, they found that the area of the ice and snow cover had suddenly increased by 12% in 1971 and the increase has persisted ever since. Areas of Baffin Island in the Canadian Arctic, for example, were once totally free of any snow in summer; now they are covered year round.
Dr. Jaworowski, M.D., Ph.D., D.Sc gave us this info in 2004:
• Since 1980, there has been an advance of more than 55% of the 625 mountain glaciers under observation by the World Glacier Monitoring group in Zurich. (From 1926 to 1960, some 70-95% of these glaciers were in retreat.)

• A comparison of the U.S. Department of Agriculture’s 1965 and 1990 Plant Hardiness Zone Maps, shows a southward change of one zone, or 10°F, between 1965 and 1990.

• Careful measurements of the oxygen isotope ratios in German oaks, which are rigorously calibrated to temperature data, show a 1°C temperature decline from 1350 to 1800 (the lowpoint of the Little Ice Age). Temperature thereafter increased by 1°C from 1800 to 1930, and has been declining since then.

• From weather stations in the Alps, and in the Nordic countries, we find the temperature decline since 1930 is also 1°C.

• Satellite measurements have shown growth in the height and breadth of the huge Greenland ice sheet, the largest in the Northern Hemisphere
So, you can't really claim that scientists are never wrong....Someone has to be wrong based on the above.

Either way...If you believe in GW or not. Polution is not good and we need to develop alternative fuels. But, Science still has a long way to go to be right about everything....Heck at one point people of science thought fire was an element released from objects.

http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askas...99/gen99835.htm

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02-11-2008 07:04 AM  10 years agoPost 47
spork

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Mountain View, CA

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1. The Earth is the center of the universe.
2. The Earth is flat.
As I said I'm not interested in the "scientific" claims from the time when the Church was in charge of science. I prefer the scientific method, peer review, etc.
But to claim that scientist's are always correct is not logical in any way
I never claimed anything remotely like that. Heck, there are respected scientists today that don't agree with the IPCC's conclusions. Clearly I think they're wrong. My claim once again...
I defy you to identify a single instance in which something studied this thoroughly by this many scientists worldwide has later proven to be wrong.
And I still stand by that.
I can remember being told we were getting ready for a new *ice* age....So scientists were either wrong then, or now.
Yup, I remember that too. And that was based on a single paper authored by two researchers that later acknowledged their error and published those new results. This was the furthest thing from scientific consensus there could ever be. The fact that the popular media picked it up and ran with it is unfortunate and misleading.

I can tell you plenty of cases in which respected scientists disagree. Some believe in God. Others are staunch atheists. But again, you have to look at my claim above. The only reason I taunted drdot to come up with even a single case of a single scientist is that he just wanted to make baseless claims. My challenge stands (see above).
So, you can't really claim that scientists are never wrong....
And I never did.

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02-11-2008 07:51 AM  10 years agoPost 48
dick smith

rrApprentice

perth

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shall i open another spork/havoc disscusion thread..........with special comments from drdot.......... with half time analyis from special guest gimbal fan

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02-11-2008 07:54 AM  10 years agoPost 49
spork

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Mountain View, CA

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shall i open another spork/havoc disscusion thread..........
Sounds like fun (the kind of fun you have when you get sand in your eyes), but there's really no such thing as a "spork/havoc discussion"

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02-11-2008 01:15 PM  10 years agoPost 50
RonHill

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FLL, FL

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As I said I'm not interested in the "scientific" claims from the time when the Church was in charge of science. I prefer the scientific method, peer review, etc.
Like it or not...Those claims were using scientific method and were peer reviewed. They were also wrong...That just shows that scientific method gets better in a couple of hundred years.

But to claim we now have it right was the same thing they said. Any good scientific approach allows for the conclusion to be proven incorrect if additional information or methods become available.

The fact that other scientists disagree with GW is enough to not be able to claim it as correct as it stands. But enough evidence is there to support its consideration.
The only reason I taunted drdot to come up with even a single case of a single scientist is that he just wanted to make baseless claims
I wonder how much more good would be done if not for the unneeded tauntings, name calling...ect.

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02-11-2008 02:24 PM  10 years agoPost 51
spork

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Mountain View, CA

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Like it or not...Those claims were using scientific method and were peer reviewed. They were also wrong...That just shows that scientific method gets better in a couple of hundred years.
Ron, go back and read the posts. Say what you like but the "Earth is flat" and "we're the center of the universe" claims came from the time when "science" was the purview of the church. If you're going to attack the challenge you should read the challenge. I'll post my wording yet again...
We're not talking about the dark ages when the church was "science". And despite what you think there has never been anything remotely akin to consensus that the earth was cooling in the 70's. I defy you to identify a single instance in which something studied this thoroughly by this many scientists worldwide has later proven to be wrong.
Do you actually disagree with this statement Ron? If so please provide an example.
I wonder how much more good would be done if not for the unneeded tauntings, name calling...ect.
Read the thread and tell me who's doing the name calling.

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02-11-2008 02:40 PM  10 years agoPost 52
1stPlace

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Ohio USA

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Spork,
I responded to your PM. Is a gentlemen agreement good enough for you? Or will you insist that someone else holds the money?

Also, since you want to bet on this statement:
McCain will be the next president and a new conservative Nationalist party will be formed.
For me to win, do both the McCain presidency and the Nationalist party have to come to pass, or just the McCain presidency?

Or, should it be $250.00 for the McCain presidency, and $250.00 for the Nationalist party?

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02-11-2008 02:47 PM  10 years agoPost 53
spork

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Mountain View, CA

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I responded to your PM. Is a gentlemen agreement good enough for you? Or will you insist that someone else holds the money?
I got your PM, thanks. I don't know you well enough to say. If there are several people on the forum that will confirm the wager, and back you up, I'll be happy to proceed as you suggest.
For me to win, do both the McCain presidency and the Nationalist party have to come to pass, or just the McCain presidency?

Or, should it be $250.00 for the McCain presidency, and $250.00 for the Nationalist party?
The bet I offered was a direct quote of your statement. We can put $500 on the complete statement, or break it up half and half. Your choice.

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02-11-2008 03:52 PM  10 years agoPost 54
drdot

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So. California, Orange County.

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fwiw,,

Regarding my "Baseless" claims..Again...Do the research...We aren't talking todays science..any more than this discussion on some other topic 100 years hence..Human hubris IS the problem...We imagine we know much...so it must be true...Anyone see the movie "What the bleep do we know"?
Isaac Asimowv was my childhood hero..Until he made the flat statement that faster than light travel was impossible...Recent models of the birth of the universe require superluminal velocities to validate the theory...Who's right? who's wrong?..WE DON'T KNOW!

B.C.

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02-11-2008 04:33 PM  10 years agoPost 55
spork

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Mountain View, CA

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Regarding my "Baseless" claims..Again...Do the research...
I've done the research. You're wrong.

By the way, I just love the folks that make a baseless claim, offer NO evidence, and then tell others to do the research for them.

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02-11-2008 05:28 PM  10 years agoPost 56
1stPlace

rrApprentice

Ohio USA

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I got your PM, thanks. I don't know you well enough to say. If there are several people on the forum that will confirm the wager, and back you up, I'll be happy to proceed as you suggest.
OK, here are several people from RR that will vouch for me making deals, and making good on those deals.

RR classified feedback

Several more

and finally, several hundred more:

eBay feedback

There is nothing at stake here, other than our reputations. If you don't pay when you loose, your reputation is shot, the same goes for mine.

Why should I trust you to pay up if you loose? Because, I give everyone the benefit of doubt, until they give me a reason not to trust them. I can trust you, can't I?

Do we have a deal?

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02-11-2008 05:55 PM  10 years agoPost 57
Havoc

rrElite Veteran

Ky.

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By the way, I just love the folks that make a baseless claim, offer NO evidence, and then tell others to do the research for them.
Actually I've detected little research from Spork other than continuous repetition of "consensus" and ridiculing anything else. Which all you need to be considered part of the Alarmist's consensus is to not completely discount man's role in climate. That doesn't make you an alarmist but you still get counted in their number. So all shades of gray on the issue are declared black by the alarmists unless inconvenient. The National Academy of Science is counted toward the consensus. They think their is a problem and we should spend more money on research. ok Fine. But they cover their bases with "The changes observed over the last several decades are likely mostly due to human activities, but we cannot rule out that some significant part of these changes is also a reflection of natural variability." Yep that’s a hard-line position alarmists should use as a battle cry . Which is what you find time and again when looking into alarmist's claims of "consensus". A belief that we are impacting the earth is reasonable. Trying to stifle debate as to why, how, and the extent is not science and is not a game played by real scientists and leads to knee jerk reactions. For example, many alarmists would paint us as the bad guy for not signing Kyoto and that 'the rest of the world signed it' so there must be a problem. Then mock any alternative reasons for signing it as conspiracy theories. But they also tend to admit to being politically naive so you can excuse some of that rhetoric. They obviously didn't read the Reuters article which reported that Kyoto was undermining the Montreal Protocol that was intended to phase out gases that could harm the Ozone layer. Many countries involved in Kyoto are chasing the over $5 Billion carbon trading scheme. Some have deliberately raised emissions of greenhouse gases only to eliminate them to claim the carbon credits. So pursuit of kyoto isn't the noble and altruistic goal it gets painted as in the media. But I can understand why alarmists didn't hear about that. They don't want to.

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02-11-2008 05:58 PM  10 years agoPost 58
classic

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All over the place!

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So if you put Mccain and Global warming Both on a treadmill..........??

Which is worse, ignorance or apathy? I don't know and I don't care!

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02-11-2008 06:06 PM  10 years agoPost 59
drdot

rrElite Veteran

So. California, Orange County.

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fwiw...

Gee, I don't know what to say...Once again, I've been humbled by the mighty forces of the intellectual elite....BTW, my point was made by another post earlier in the thread anyway...
Thanks to Ron Hill...

B.C.

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02-11-2008 06:12 PM  10 years agoPost 60
#55

rrVeteran

Dyersburg, TN

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All of the people that love to hate Bush must not even think about how bad off we would all be if that moron Gore had gotten in....
well said...I agree totaly

Dropping Tones!

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