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02-08-2008 06:05 PM  10 years agoPost 1
maveric4

rrVeteran

england

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Hi guys,

I want to try and practice the auto and have a question.

I am going to try this from a few feet off the ground and then hit the switch.

Question when I hit the switch will the tail kick to one side.
I am using a hh gyro which can also be set to rate mode, would there be a different reaction between the two modes.
I did practice this years ago when the mechanical gyro was all that was available and I remember the tail swinging round about 90 degrees.

So would this still happen with todays gyro in either mode and if so what direction would it be on a raptor.

Thanks guys.

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02-08-2008 06:15 PM  10 years agoPost 2
tauscnc

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Joliet IL

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The tail should stay straight as the raptor has a driven tail rotor. If you put it in rate mode it might if it is not setup properly.

For example, while hovering in HH mode put it in rate mode and see if the tail moves. Fix that mechanically...than put it back into HH mode and than back into rate mode. The heli really should not move.

Now if you do your auto it should stay but there really is no reason I see to not keep it in HH mode. Hover a few feet and just hit the throttle hold and let it decend...don't do much with anything.

As you get higher than move the collective down to get into 0 pitch or some negative to gain head speed.

When you much higher 40-50 feet make sure to bring the collective down. I would set it around -3 or -4 MAX on the low end.

Do your auto INTO the wind and make sure you HAVE wind (10-15 mph) is really good. Have some forward speed, start your decent, hit throttle hold, go to full low stick (preset for the -3 to -4), it will decent fast and than kind of taper into a constant desend. Start pulling back, adding in pitch and WA-LA you have your auto!!

good luck

taus
http://www.cuttingedgecnc.com

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02-08-2008 06:17 PM  10 years agoPost 3
Zaneman007

rrElite Veteran

Texas - USA

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As long is your gyro is in HH there should be no difference. If you have pitch settings in your flight mode that differ from the pitch settings in you auto mode, then the heli may or may not jump?

But that is definately the way to learn.

Good luck, sit back and auto.

Old Guys Rule!

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02-08-2008 06:18 PM  10 years agoPost 4
kobalt12

rrNovice

UK - Manchester

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as long as AVC = HH i set in throttle hold the tail will not swing around..

You may have to adjust the Gyro gain, as you wont need as much gain for throttle hold..

But remeber if you abort an auto and go back into normal flight the tail will kick slightly as the torq comes back in as the RPM goes up, but no where near as nasty of the mechanical gyro days.

Stuart

Good luck, start of low and ensure you land with full stick, and as you become more confident increase the height.

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02-08-2008 06:40 PM  10 years agoPost 5
ScottG

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Ft Wayne, Indiana

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May I make a suggestion? Many years ago I struggled learning autos too, the thought of the thing just dropping out of the sky was a little unnerving. I found the hardest part of an auto is to get the feel for the proper timing to flare to a good landing, the entrance and drop is a piece a cake cause you don't too much but wait till it gets close to the ground. Go up and out to about 100 feet or so into a hover, turn the heli sideways so the nose is into the wind, stabilize and take a big breath and relax, hit the hold switch and bring the throttle stick down to idle ( your collective setting should be between -3 to -10 degrees at this throttle setting ). The heli should start to drop for a few feet fairly fast until the blade speed comes up and normalizes with the lift they are creating. At that point start to bring the throttle stick up to just under half ( your collective should still be a minimum in the negative at this setting ). You should recognize a slowing of the decent of the heli and the blades might be making a nice chopping noise by then. Go ahead and flip off the hold and throttle up and go around, your tail shouldn't kick because you switched in throttle at 1/2 and increase from there. Practice the entrance and drop of your autos until you get comfortable with that and the rate of decent, your confidence will increase as you bail out lower and lower over time. Once all that get boring you can start to flair back the decent to back to almost a hover before you bail out giving you a feel for how much back pressure you need to stop forward drop. Unfortunately you will just have to go for it one day when you have a good feel for the flair without bailing out and actually land under throttle hold mode.... Good Luck...!!!

Scott

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02-08-2008 09:42 PM  10 years agoPost 6
snobdrs

rrVeteran

coatesville,pa-usa

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Good advice from scott. Let me add foward speed is a must.
If you are comfortable with flying around, your almost there.
First on the ground make sure that in throttle hold the heli dosent quit. nice high idle. Then go out and fly a pattern, keep good altitude. as you turn final, flip on hold, drop your collective( i run +/- 10 in all modes this is a personal preference, i would at least have -5) Now heli will start to drop, just listen and you can tell what the headspeed is doing, You want a nice decent. Now let it come on down to say 10 or so feet and flip off of hold and go around, dont worry about the flair yet just get used to the approach and going around.
Once you can handle that, just bring it down to eye level and try to stop it there with a little aft cyclic, not to much. What you want to be able to do is auto down to eye level, just like the ground is that high. then flip off hold and go around.
Then just work them on down lower and lower.

Support your local hobby shop

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02-08-2008 10:03 PM  10 years agoPost 7
Raptor3DPilot

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North Las Vegas, NV

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My piece of advice is to make sure you have your throttle curve for your throttle hold position set up correctly. My first time attempting an auto I was forced to do a full no power auto (with good success I might add. ) but I was forced because I had my throttle setting to zero on my throttle hold setting when my idle (low) setting on my flight mode 1 was set to around 15%. Nothing like getting the balls to flip the switch only to hear that your motor just shut off!

Remember when flying inverted that down is up and up is EXPENSIVE!

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02-08-2008 10:12 PM  10 years agoPost 8
maveric4

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england

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Thanks guys for the replies.

I have been out of the hobby for several years but I have done succesfull autos all the way down when the mechanical gyros were around. Mind you I never did very many but some of those attempts resulted in most of the crashes I had. Ie boom strikes, But unfortunately I never really did get to grips with it.

On the approach do you want a nose down attitude all the way in till the flair. I have been trying some on the sim reflex and found on there that I could land some of them if I started with a nose down attitude but half way down pulled in some back cyclic which actually slowed the decent before the flair and enabled me to get it down.

In your opinion which is harder autos with the sim or the real deal.

Some suggest +10 -10 if I had this set up do you guys actually employ all of that on the way down or just pull the stick back to say a quarter whereby only using say -5.
Do you actually need all that negative for autos.
I understand thats when flying inverted its nice to have that mirror pitch but do you all use all of it when in an auto cos the bird is going to drop real fast with that lot.

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02-08-2008 10:53 PM  10 years agoPost 9
jschenck

rrProfessor

La Vista, NE.

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read up on this thread and Ron Lund's writeup:

http://runryder.com/t406517p1/

http://www.ronlund.com/autos.htm

Once I learned auto's I find them to be one of my favorite maneuvers.

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02-08-2008 10:57 PM  10 years agoPost 10
Thomas L Erb

rrKey Veteran

Alliance ohio

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Hay Mav how you set your pitchs depends on how you fly now . reguardless if you fly 3d or fai styles set your pitch's to match your normal curve. this way you can practice all but the flair in normal and it wont feel any different when you start shooting real autos. I would fly all in HH mode, no need to fly in normal gyro mode. I personally dont ever use more than -4 to -5 pitch in hold. but then again i dont do rolling autos either. if you are just starting to relearn autos the less pitch you have to deal with will make the auto easier to learn. there are reasons to have more neg pitch but you can expand them as you see the need and gain the skill and confidance. For a simple strait in or turning auto no heli needs more than -5 deg. ( unless it is blowing about 40 mph winds lol) your approches need to be done into the wind with forward speed with the heli level to slightly nose down depending on forward speed and headwind conditions. hard nose down will only speed your decent and minimise lift gain ( kinda like falling off your cushion of air).to see how much head you will have at the flair just do the 3' autos. to me the 6 to 30' heights are the most hazardous to pracitce in. I have see guys go up 30' and hit hold and come strait down and thats scarry to watch. just remember forward speed creates lift and maintains rotor speed. no forward speed --- no lift gained!

the only other method i have seen work with success is to set your hold throttle to a fast idle ( clutch bearly engaged) and shoot autos to the ground and as you get comfortable slowly reduce idle speed until back to normal. Its kinda like cheating but i have seen it work well for some
as far as sim autos they are way easier because of no fear factor unless you purposely modified the paramaters to make it more difficult Hope this helps Tom

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02-08-2008 10:59 PM  10 years agoPost 11
jschenck

rrProfessor

La Vista, NE.

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On the approach do you want a nose down attitude all the way in till the flair
keep the heli relatively flat, just a little bit of down to keep it moving forward in the air but not much. flair 5'-7' off the ground to stop all forward movement but don't add any collective until 2'-3' at which point you "just" land it.
Some suggest +10 -10 if I had this set up do you guys actually employ all of that on the way down or just pull the stick back to say a quarter whereby only using say -5.
I fly all my flightmodes with the same pitch curve, +/-10 with maybe a touch more at the top in throttle hold. but I only use -4 to -5 for the auto's otherwise it comes down too fast any you actually loose headspeed. If your collective is in the right spot the blades make a really nice swooshing sound. listen for it. On windy days I can come in with a near zero collective and it'll glide in almost like a fixed wing. Bottom line, don't drop it too fast.

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02-08-2008 11:45 PM  10 years agoPost 12
Gadget01rrNovice - Okinawa, Japan - My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

Instead of going to 0% throttle with throttle-hold, adjust it to 15% or so. That way if you decide to abort, switching off throttle hold will get you back to full power quicker for a recovery.

There is no training difference vs using 0%, up until you get towards the end since you will still have a small amount of power.

Just make sure the pitch curves for the mode you're flying in and for throttle hold are the same.

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02-09-2008 12:23 AM  10 years agoPost 13
dangtsi

rrApprentice

Greenville, Pennsylvania, Mercer

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If you use too much negative collective the helicopter will not come to you unless you have forward speed to begin the auto. It is not necessary to have -9 degrees to perform your first auto. The "Sweet Spot" is usually between -3.5 to -5.0 degrees. If you set your throttle hold pitch curve to have -9 to -10 degrees and you feel comfortable finding the spot for the collective stick where the helicopter is not falling like a rock and the blades are making a nice fluttering sound then by all means do it. If you would prefer having the helicopter falling with a more gentle rate and be able to pull the collective all the way down then set your Normal and Throttle hold modes to be about -4.5 degrees at the bottom of the collective curve.

As mentioned by others here some forward speed is a plus in an auto. Too much forward speed and you may be landing too far away and not be able to flare properly. If you descend at about 45 degrees with about -3.5 to -4.5 degrees the helicopter will have a nice glide ratio. If your forward speed stops even when you have the forward cyclic/nose down slightly just raise the collective stick a small amount and it should start to come to you. You may want to practice this on the simulator.

Remember that you can't run up to a stop sign at 90 mph and stop in ten feet. You don't want to try to stop the helicopter in the last 10 feet when it it falling really fast either. Listen to the blades and slow it down using a very slight nose up elevator flare with negative pitch and careful use of the collective stick. You should be able to touch the ground at half stick to three quarters stick. A heavier set of blades will help.

After you feel comfortable doing autos you may want to set your bottom end like your Idle up curves to -9 degrees or higher.

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