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HomeAircraftHelicopterHelicopter Main Discussion › The best way to learn auto rotation after the sim?
02-06-2008 03:40 AM  10 years agoPost 21
flustercluck

rrVeteran

Newnan Ga (Just S. of ATL)

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I think another thing that can help is blade inertia & mass; if the blades you're using when you're just starting are relatively heavy (eg fiberglass) then they tend to rotate longer, giving that precious extra time before the rotor slows down too much to keep the heli aloft

then on the other hand I've seen experienced pilots auto very well using stock woodies

like about everything else with heli's, it's all about collective management

(and a little cyclic for a smooth flare)

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02-06-2008 03:40 AM  10 years agoPost 22
jschenck

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La Vista, NE.

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One other thing is i dont have a constant tail drive but heard on another post the hawk ate up to much rotor speed with it than with out it
I learned auto's without a driven tail. I found that I didn't start steering the tail on auto's for the first year anyhow and there is a bit of energy gained by not spinning the tail rotor on the way down.

BUT, you want to make sure that the heli is in a comfortable orientation because you can't change it when you are almost down.

If you can't tell, I really like shooting auto's! I end just about every flight with a series of autos to the point where some of the guys I fly with were wondering out loud if I even remembered how to land under power

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02-06-2008 03:45 AM  10 years agoPost 23
jking

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artesia,new mexico

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lose your fuel clunk about 150 feet up and you learn to auto real quick.this was how i did my first high auto besides the sim.luckily it was just a little hard busted the front gear on my 600n only 7.00 to fix.

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02-06-2008 03:27 PM  10 years agoPost 24
helibandit

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Jacksonville, North Carolina - United States

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i know its not proper but like a few couple others said i think the best way is to go fly and run it till shes outta gas.. i did it like this my first time and you become forced to do it and because of that you can do things that you couldnt if you thought about it. knda like shooting a basketball.. if you think about it too hard ur not gonna make the basket but if you just go up and shoot you will have a better chance at making it. thats just me though.. i usualy fly with a full tank plus the header tank but that time i didnt have enough gas for a full tank and forgot i didnt while i was flying.. it just quit and i did a perfect first auto.. another time the engine blew up at about 12 feet wich also was a successful auto and the other time i dont know what the heck happened. i cranked er up and took off fast forward instead of up into a hover first then it just quit. i was a bout 4 feet off the deck moving forward pretty fast.. the auto was good but i was haulin a$$ and was so low that i had a hard time flairing without driving the tail into the deck. i kinda kicked the tail out and did a sideways auto if that makes any sence. it was a close one but turned out ok. every time i go to do an auto on purpose it turn out like crap..SURVIVABLE but crappy..

The only time you can have too much fuel is when your on fire

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02-06-2008 03:46 PM  10 years agoPost 25
bxc53

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Directly over the center of the Earth ( 98223)

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A bucket full of booms and blades
That's how I learned on my old Raptor 30 v1. Wood blades at that..

I had about 10 bent booms and broken blades in a box until the wife asked what they were...Never mind

On the up side, if you can auto a R-30 with woodies, it only gets better from there.

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02-06-2008 04:20 PM  10 years agoPost 26
snobdrs

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coatesville,pa-usa

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I think the best way is start from pattern high( 40-60 or so feet) Pull on you throttle hold (make sure on the ground that when your in hold it dosent quit) fly a pattern make you turn to final and pull hold on. Astablish you glide, starting high lets you play with the collective to get a good glide while keeping head speed up.I still; run a +/- 10 pitch curve which allows better selection of glide, and in emergence situations i dont have to worry about pulling on hold to get a different pitch curve. Bring it on down and do your flair high. Try to auto down to say eye level. Act as if the ground is that high. What you want to accomplish is a good flair and to get the helis foward motion stoped. Practice these down to eye level at first. Keep your finger on the hold switch, if it gets unconfortable pop it back off and go around. Once your good whith eye level just work your way down to the ground.

Support your local hobby shop

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02-06-2008 05:36 PM  10 years agoPost 27
w8qz

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Grand Rapids, MI - USA

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I've done pretty much what jschenck has written - lots of 'baby autos' 3' up to 10'. What I can add is - at least for my 30 - that upping the headspeed in a hover helps immensely. I'm running between 2000 - 2100 rpm (with composite blades). I think that headspeed is the biggest reason to not use the woodies.

Anyway, like jschenck says - 1. lots of baby autos - aim for a 'no bounce' touchdown. Teaches you collective finess - when to 'pull', and how much. (I still always do a couple of these to 'warm up' before doing the real thing - helps to settle the nerves.)

2. I did a lot of 'cheater' autos - go up high, in normal mode, and drop the collective stick all the way down. When you get to about 15' - 10', gradually feed collective (and throttle) back in. This helps to get over the 'that $%^&*() thing's falling like a brick!' stage, without having to worry about fiddling with the T/H switch (because things happen pretty fast!) This also gives you a feel for how much control response you have available from cyclic and tail. Note that you MUST have a reliable idle / good needle settings on your engine - otherwise this turns into #3!

3. Once you can do both 1 and 2 repeatedly, without ^&*(&*(() your pants, go up high and try a real auto - hit the switch . It will help to do it on a day with steady wind - 10 - 15 MPH, and set up your auto approach into the wind. (By this point, you should be able to fly around in some wind, without difficulty.) Higher is better (to a point) since it gives you some time to manuever. As others have said, keep it close. One writer said you should aim to hit yourself (*but not quite*). The closer the touchdown, the better you can see what you're doing.

I am not real comfortable with bailing out by switching out of T/H - things can get real exciting, if your tail doesn't hold perfectly. If you're going to bail out, it's better to do it sooner than later. On the other hand, a poor bail-out is still better than a crash

"The helicopter is much easier to design than the aeroplane, but is worthless when done."

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02-06-2008 05:51 PM  10 years agoPost 28
snobdrs

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coatesville,pa-usa

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I personally never liked baby autos
First without foward motion the heli reacts differently. Do you ever see a full scale do an auto from a hover. Same reason you see tv/ police choppers circling a sceen.
Second practice near the ground is inherently dangerous unless you have training gear on. If you can fly around theres no reason to practice near the ground. Catching a clump af grass or crack in pavement means hours of repair. IMO its not worth it.

Also if your heli is set right there should be no problem coming out of T/H. The heli will wag a slight bit as the sudden burst of power comes on but is pretty much a non event, just drop the nose and keep going.

Support your local hobby shop

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02-06-2008 06:38 PM  10 years agoPost 29
dangtsi

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Greenville, Pennsylvania, Mercer

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I use a different approach and setup the helicopter to allow an easier way to perform that first autorotation, and become comfortable doing many autos. Once you have become comfortable doing autos you may want to set up throttle hold with the same pitch curves as you use in Idle Up modes.

A good reason to using less negative pitch is that if you want your helicopter to move forward during an autorotation it is necessary to apply less negative pitch along with forward cyclic. Using full negative pitch does not generate any lift to allow forward flight and a gentle glide angle. You can see this using a flight simulator. If you allow the model to fall using full negative pitch and apply forward cyclic it will fall almost straight down with the nose pointing down. If you start to decrease the collective pitch towards zero degrees the helicopter will start to move forward.

The “Sweet Spot” for many helicopters during autorotations is usually about -4.5 degrees or less. This prevents the helicopter from falling like a rock and allows it to move forward with application of forward cyclic. It allows a slow descent and using forward movement it will allow a flare which will spin up the blades roughly 100 to 150 rpm.

In Normal mode you should be able to pull the collective stick completely down and have a slower rate of descent. Obviously we want a nice rate of descent with the blades making a nice whirling noise. You should gradually increase your pitch curve to obtain this result. Practice using Normal mode making descents with the collective stick all the way down. If your pitch curve is set properly the helicopter should descend at a controlled slow rate.

If you set normal mode and throttle hold pitch curve the same this allows us to transition smoothly between the two modes. We can climb to altitude, turn, and pull the throttle stick down to the bottom, and hit the throttle hold switch on the way down. The engine will go to idle, the blades will be at our auto pitch setting of -3.5 to -5.0 degrees, and the helicopter will be falling at a controlled rate when the throttle hold switch is turned on. By holding the collective stick all the way down we don’t have to worry about the correct pitch for the auto and we can concentrate on flying the helicopter down to a landing. We want some forward speed but not too much. Slightly move the elevator cyclic forward and moving the collective slightly upward should bring the helicopter towards you.

If you have some forward speed you can perform a flare which does several things to help land the helicopter. A proper flare will slow the rate of fall and forward motion. It will also speed up the main rotor blades by 100 to 150 rpm. A proper flare is with some forward motion and the collective at least -4 degrees. You raise the nose of the helicopter slightly using back elevator cyclic. Do not pitch up the nose to high during the descent and flare. The helicopter should slow down and you should hear the blades increase in speed. The flare should be executed at about ten feet or less from the ground. Remember to hold the collective stick completely down at the -4 to -5 degrees during the flare. The setup helps since the collective all the way down should aid the flare process.

You can slow the rate of descent down when the helicopter is about fifty feet from the ground by slowly raising the nose or increasing collective pitch slightly. Do not attempt to slow the helicopter down in the last ten feet. You may need to apply so much collective that you stall the blades and run out of energy to land. Practice on the simulator slowing down gradually at about fifty feet.

If you have setup your helicopter to descend slowly and you have picked a day with a moderate amount of wind your first auto should be successful. Try to relax and remember how the pros slow down and flare. Watch them every time they perform autos. Ask if you can watch their transmitter sticks when they do an auto. You will realize that they are slowing the descent using the flare and collective pitch. Watch how they push forward on the elevator cyclic just before touching down. You do not want the tail to hit first since this may create a boom strike.

Good luck with that first full autorotation! Once you learn them they become addictive. You may want to join the auto contest at the fun flys.

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02-06-2008 08:56 PM  10 years agoPost 30
snobdrs

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coatesville,pa-usa

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Dangtsi

The reason i say to use more pitch on the neg side is to be able to control decent. Early on in my days i had a flame out (pitch settings were as you described) I went into auto mode, full down stick, I had enuff neg to keep blade speed but not enuff to shorten glide path, not much you can do as the heli autos past you into the high corn. What could have been a success ended up costing new blades flybar and spindel. Its better to have a little more then a little less.
Also most fly around in an idle up anyway so the collective is already confortable.

Support your local hobby shop

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02-06-2008 11:26 PM  10 years agoPost 31
dangtsi

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Greenville, Pennsylvania, Mercer

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Snobdrs,

You make some very valid points and I agree with you. That is why I made the comment "Once you have become comfortable doing autos you may want to set up throttle hold with the same pitch curves as you use in Idle Up modes."

I will never forget how hard it was to flip that hold switch the first time. I just like to make it as easy as possible for them the first couple of times and decrease the descent rate so they can concentrate on the landing. They can decide which way they want to do them.

Maybe some day you and I can get together and shoot a couple of tanks of autos. I really enjoy doing them. Some people may tell you I am addicted to doing them.

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02-07-2008 12:32 AM  10 years agoPost 32
Dilbeck

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Springdale Arkansas

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Well i started this post because ive seen autos done by many and must say its pritty impressive and looks really cool. I know it takes a lot of skill, not only are you turning off a perfectly good running engine, not to mention the money and pride you have tied up in your heli! Just to land without a scratch. Maybe thats the addiction of the thing. Its almost a rush or something to get the heli on the ground without a scratch, I will learn to do this if it kills me or my heli. The replies have been great, everyone has his own way about it but everyone seems to be about the same mind set, its fun, and a rush at the same time.

Clint

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02-07-2008 12:49 AM  10 years agoPost 33
alf1096

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TX

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I did a good auto after my tail belt broke the other day. My question is pheionx sim very realistic. I was so nervous I can't remember. thanks

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02-07-2008 12:57 AM  10 years agoPost 34
Jeff polisena

rrElite Veteran

westpalmbeachflorida usa

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The sim is close but it seem to be oversensitive if you land continuously on sim you should have no problems at field

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02-07-2008 01:59 AM  10 years agoPost 35
ZXXflyer

rrKey Veteran

stone mountain, georgia, US

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Dead stick is more fun.... you can really hear the blades.

http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?f...ideoID=22027858

http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?f...ideoID=23246248

Believer in Weston motors!

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02-07-2008 02:58 AM  10 years agoPost 36
flustercluck

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Newnan Ga (Just S. of ATL)

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Deadstick takes BALLZ!!!!

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02-07-2008 10:24 AM  10 years agoPost 37
The Old Guy

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UK Surrey

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Me, 15 yrs ago doing autos on a Concept 30DX on woodies!!!! & as you can see i could not fly that well either
http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay...earch&plindex=5

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02-07-2008 01:25 PM  10 years agoPost 38
snobdrs

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coatesville,pa-usa

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really they are not that hard. If you an fly around and come out of foward flight back into a hover you have enuff control to be able to auto.

Support your local hobby shop

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HomeAircraftHelicopterHelicopter Main Discussion › The best way to learn auto rotation after the sim?
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