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Logo 600 › Sheared the Logo 600 3D Main Shaft IN FLIGHT (Not a problem in general but a freak incident)
02-08-2008 06:27 PM  10 years agoPost 61
Joe90

rrApprentice

Quebec, Canada

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Metallurgy
You know what, I seem that we are searching for a guilty person.

BUT, even with a completly solid shaft made of the most exotic material, some WILL break, the manufacturers simply cannot control everything and especially not the use we make of it.

A simple nick could cause it to break.

Mikado tried their best to optimise their machines. This is why their shaft is thin, not so thin in my opinion. We like light machines but we bash until breakage. Their is a fine line to ride here between light and sturdy enough and someone somewhere will cross it.

In north America we automatically search for guilty instead of searching for a solution. In Europe when they sign a waiver, they respect it if something goes wrong. They dont make lawsuit to prove their signature false. generally speaking of course.

You could have simply mentionned to directly to mikado and make your hown tempered solid shaft. Of course you now have a flying brick.

I feel we are loosing our time here (including me), simply upgrade and fly. Know that this shaft in your conditions is not applicable.

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02-08-2008 06:53 PM  10 years agoPost 62
T-rexn8

rrKey Veteran

CoLoRaDo

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I for one am happy that Mikado has responded positively to a potential issue, even if it has only happened once. I think you are being too defensive Tickidytoc. Why fight an improvememnt that could potentially prevent injury or severe damage to property. If you dont care or are not worried about it, maybe you could consider the other pilots flying this machine with friends and family. In addition the people that disrespected DJ and spoke for basically no reason should have just kept out. Why would a team pilot come in a public forum with anything but help to support the company he represents. I am not tooting Chris's horn, rather expressing that his flying style is harder on a machine than most of the common RC heli pilots out there and that he is capable of bringing out problems that many will never see. Not saying who is better or "harder". DJ has the trophies to prove how good he is.

The point of this topic is real simple....

A mainshaft broke in mid-flight. Why did it happen and what should be done about it.

Xxtreme 800, TDR, 700E DFC, Mini Protos, T-450 DFC, Blade 130x, mcpx, nano

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02-09-2008 05:47 AM  10 years agoPost 63
Ticidytoc

rrApprentice

Los Angeles, Ca.

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I think you are being too defensive Tickidytoc.
Far far far from that M8.

I told you it was the future........

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02-09-2008 10:00 AM  10 years agoPost 64
Eco8gator

rrElite Veteran

Palm Beach, FL

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I still dont get why you continue to say we are having issues with the PB. We fly 600mm V blades with no problem...I just dont personally like them because the Radix feel smoother and its easier for me to fly. Chris actually likes the Vs?

The only reason I weighted the 325 blades was to make my job easier. With no stab the heli is uncontrolable in the flybarless config. In reality a Logo 10, Logo 14, and 600 all fly with no stabalization its just cancling out the negative affects. I think it has to deal with the ratio of disk mass lost in the conversion. With a Logo the loss is about 10 to 15 % disk mass. On a TREX its over 25%. All I did was get the disk mass up a tad bit. It went from flying ok(pretty cool to fly because it was fast but piro flips were hard to do consistantly) to flying perfect through all manuvers. Other than another vid Ive never seen a flybarless 450 implemented.

And so you know I literally put the PB from the 450 to the Logo and with very little change(servo direction and sub trim) the board works good. Why do you keep trying to say what Ive made isnt working because it is. The only reason its not out is because I really have hesitation to deal with people and Im still going over the details to make sure this is actually worth while for me. I have a really good job and I dont need start a business to be comfortable. The only reason I even made this thing is I have fun developing this type of hardware.

I worked in design labs for 4 years at the University of Florida developing autopilots for planes with 6-19in wing spans and also developed autonomous submarine. I've been in 7 world competitions for these vehicles and have 7 world titles to show for. I dont normally bring it up but I feel I need to dump my resume to show that I can do a little something... The PB never for any reason ground Chris or I...I just tweak the code. The only thing that has grounded us a motor, one set of blades, and this shaft(this being by far the most destructive).

Anyways, I didnt mean for this to blow out of hand.

Chris and I have a unique situation and people shouldnt be worried about their Logos, they are good.

Our situation was a fluke(well hopefully) and Im just going to bite the bullet and put this thing back together with the stock equipment. Hopefully we never experience is never reported again.

C
PS: This is getting way out of control so Im going to have to close this thread. Ive learned one thing, if you have any issues talk to the company first, post later. Seems I did it the other way around and this is what I get. Oh well...at least there is an attempt to possibly make something that works even better.

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02-09-2008 10:28 AM  10 years agoPost 65
Ronald Thomas

rrMaster

Gainesville, Fl, USA

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I have seen things like this before, here in person and out at the field. Someone will do something wrong with a build, or mistreat the equipment without knowing any better or shear stupidity. Their heli will crash, no one gets hurt, Thank God, then they start talking about how that heli is crap, it has faulty parts, etc... Then you go to a forum and read the post, usually I just shake my head and move on, this time I decided to say something.
That IS the point. They had aver 50 flights on this heli before the incident so saying it was a build error or they "mistreated" the heli is a little too much.....Ron

Team MikadoUSA 480XXTreme, 550SX, 600SX, 700XXTreme, 800XXTreme!!

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02-09-2008 05:34 PM  10 years agoPost 66
Ticidytoc

rrApprentice

Los Angeles, Ca.

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When can I order one of these to try out?
Do you have a new release date?
Price?
ETA when they will ship?
How do I make adjustments to the system?
GUI or code?
If code which language will I need to know?

I told you it was the future........

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02-09-2008 06:13 PM  10 years agoPost 67
Eco8gator

rrElite Veteran

Palm Beach, FL

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Like I said Radix (140g) and TT (140g) both work great for me. Its the feel that I like, 90 like stabality but still agressive. Chris likes it more active and he can get that with the V's(usually 130g), the heli is still very stable but its more active so he can really get on the cyclic. It's a physics thing... What point am I missing, because we seem to have some sort of missunderstanding on why lighter blades would feel different than heavier ones. Even with a gyro in the background you wont get the same feel with differnt blade types...could someone else with a flybarless system that has tried differnt blade weights chime in.

Chris was flying Radix blades currently but thats because I gave him a set of Radix blades...he would be flying V TST blades but we never got to that.

Curious, what does the PB release date have anything to do with this post?

Are you trying to give me a taste of my medicine of something because this is a pretty poor attempt. Do a search, I mention many times POSSIBLY first quarter and I also mention interface details(no computer, all on board, "simple", ect). The only language youll need to know is English to read the instructions and follow the videos. Price is targed at under what a 611 package will cost but thats as specific as I can get at this time.

The focus of this post is a shaft breaking in flight due to something unknown. Your right lots of variables and you make that point. Then you go and try to imply that the PB could have caused it, I dont get where your comming from. There isnt much on the Logo 600 to screw up and Ive been building helis for a long time....I know what Im doing. If the grips let go because of not putting some locktight then shame on me but a shaft broke...so shame on me for not x-raying it or having a strain guage setup on it to tell me that its stressed???

Oh here is a reminder of what this post was all about.

C
PS: And to the rest of you guys that are kinda laughing at T and I bicker about nothing. I feel that I have to defend myself because hes taking shots at a product Im develping so I hope you guys understand. Ive tried keeping this in PMs but he keeps going on and Im not going to take cheap shots on something that this guys defintally doesnt understand.

Your Logos are fine if your curious. Ours was a freak incident(hopefully) and I really hope I never hear of it happening again...as far as im concerned any potential problem were already addressd by Ralf and Daniel many posts ago. Its basically a Jerry Springer episode right now

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02-09-2008 06:24 PM  10 years agoPost 68
Ticidytoc

rrApprentice

Los Angeles, Ca.

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Originally I stated that you are testing a prototype system with your Mikado heli. Just so the users are aware of the complete situation and don't think this was a V-Stabi related incident.

I told you it was the future........

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02-09-2008 06:41 PM  10 years agoPost 69
Eco8gator

rrElite Veteran

Palm Beach, FL

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I figured that a broken shaft is a clear indication of a mechanical issue and that people would know that its seperate from an electrical issue?

IMHO the V Bar, though I havent used one or flown one, is awsome. It's the base line that all of us up and comming systems have to live up to and its hard work.

I was at IRCHA and I let people fly my 450 flybarless and Logo 10 flybarless. Actuallly a lot of people saw it fly(they seemed impressed but I cant say for sure) and its only become much better since then.

Ill prob be at IRCHA also and I will be bringing a diverse range of machines to show what this version of the PB can do.

C
BTW, Im going to to the store today to get some V TST

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02-09-2008 06:54 PM  10 years agoPost 70
Ticidytoc

rrApprentice

Los Angeles, Ca.

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I figured that a broken shaft is a clear indication of a mechanical issue and that people would know that its seperate from an electrical issue?

I told you it was the future........

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02-09-2008 07:38 PM  10 years agoPost 71
misskimo

rrElite Veteran

Alaska 17 years, before mississippi for 31y

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hey , I pointed out some things on egroups , yep! got alittle blasted because of my thoughts on it. but what I seen just points to what I thought .
1 PB is alittle on the high gain side
2 Servo are strong and fast that will effect everything
3 I bought his Trex that he used the PB on , top bearing were wore OUT! 50 flights
Now , did I imply his PB might be the problem , NO, I just stated to tame it down some. what happens when you tail gain is high,
servos ware out pre.
strip tail gears
there is alot of variables here. and a gain to high with fast servos , and a direct hookup to the swash. ex , put a dial Indicator on the swash and see if it moves up and down real fast while sitting there not running. while running you wouldnt see this because its a blur
and the only way to solve it . is to do it again with the same setup. try to break it doesnt seam right if you look at cost. but its something the car manufactors do in there crash testing. but what other way is there to see if theres a problem with instant reaction on a shaft when you got a gain up high and a fast reaction servo. I personaly dont think you need a fast servo with a Vbar or PB. .15 with strenth should give you all the speed with the gain that can be controlled

PS , also dont call it a copyed Vbar. his way of thinking is like , Got hours and hours on the development which kinda acts like a mother thing ( pretect no matter what kinda thing)

OH ! mecanical and electrial are as ONE here , because your gain and fast servos are ran by electrical.

Tony
The focus of this post is a shaft breaking in flight due to something unknown. Your right lots of variables and you make that point. Then you go and try to imply that the PB could have caused it, I dont get where your comming from. There isnt much on the Logo 600 to screw up and Ive been building helis for a long time....I know what Im doing. If the grips let go because of not putting some locktight then shame on me but a shaft broke...so shame on me for not x-raying it or having a strain guage setup on it to tell me that its stressed???

Oh here is a reminder of what this post was all about.
hey , well, if you really want to know it all. go back to school and get your mechanical engineering degree. then you can have the best of both worlds.

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02-09-2008 09:05 PM  10 years agoPost 72
Eco8gator

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Palm Beach, FL

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Im actually thinking about getting my masters in mechanical to go with my masters in electrical, your right in my field knowing both well goes a long way.

But yes we have the gain up and we could crank it up with the 8717s because they are like tail servos but faster. The heli basically flys its self with hands off but it took some tweaking to get it that way. It's fun because out of transition you can kinda go blank and the heli just hovers its self...is this cheating But with this setup, there is definitally more stress on the entire heli. If this can be linked to why the shaft broke or was the cause then I do think the added strength of the thicker walled shaft would be needed. There are quite a few flybarless system that will be comming out soon and who knows what those will do and could be as tough on the heli as my system possibly is. Im just glad there is a solution in the works already.

So you know, Chris has worn out top bearings(again sorry about missing that) on nitro flybared TREX's, electric flybared TREX's, and on flybarless. It doesnt matter it just happens when he flys because hes spankin it. BTW Chris is at E Fest now smackin a beam around. I cant wait to hear how he does in the competition.

Oh and I went out and got some TST's. The fly really well on this Logo 14, so well that Im keeping them on. Its more peppy but the TST feel differnt than the V2s that I was using...I need to go down in pitch though, these load up the head more than my Radix but I like them and they are quite compared to old V's.

C

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02-09-2008 09:11 PM  10 years agoPost 73
Ronald Thomas

rrMaster

Gainesville, Fl, USA

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DJ stated:
We flew that Machine up to 700 blades with no issues.
So apparently the "weighted" or "oversized" blades are not an issue.
It seems like a FEW people are attacking Carlo for what happened when he was explainig what DID happen. There are a LOT of factors that influence excessive bearing wear other than the presence of a "non-Mikdao" stabilization system.
I am pretty sure the purpose of Carlo posting this was not to say Mikado helis are crap, he was just saying a wierd situation happened, this really sux, and has anyone else had this problem. Now everyone thinks hey know what caused it when in fact if it truly were nothing, DJ would not have said Mikado was taking steps to make sure this never happens again.
Carlo, I am sorry you and your ProBar are being attacked for something that was truly an aberration and I hope you get your heli back in the air soon........Ron

Team MikadoUSA 480XXTreme, 550SX, 600SX, 700XXTreme, 800XXTreme!!

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02-09-2008 09:14 PM  10 years agoPost 74
misskimo

rrElite Veteran

Alaska 17 years, before mississippi for 31y

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hey , Yep the shaft getting some meat will fix it But the bearing will wear out now. which means you need to do an inspection on it like every 25 flights or so.
If Chris flys a rex again , make sure you take out the stock bearing and put in some like the MA bearing, they will last a long time

good luck

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02-10-2008 06:56 AM  10 years agoPost 75
Ticidytoc

rrApprentice

Los Angeles, Ca.

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So after all of this crying on here about attacking Carlo and how his Probar could have never caused the failure the man posts this?
There are quite a few flybarless system that will be comming out soon and who knows what those will do and could be as tough on the heli as my system possibly is.
and admits his system can be harder on the heli?

I told you it was the future........

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02-10-2008 02:26 PM  10 years agoPost 76
Eco8gator

rrElite Veteran

Palm Beach, FL

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Hello

All I said was Im unsure because Tony thinks my gain could be high. Really, I am unsure of the cause, all I know is the shaft broke for some reason.

I was just bringing up the pont that there are quite a few barless systems coming out and they could be just as "hard" on a heli as my system(according to Tonys, speculation) is(or could be).

I think u took what I wrote out of context.

In short what I ment was if the intensity of the flybarless system is causing a shaft to break its good that there are plans to make a potential weak link a nonissue.
There will be many barless systems out with many unknowns so if there is even a remote chance of this being an issue then it should be addressed. I think this will only help sales because Mikado can say the Logo can handle any barless system...because right now I bet is safe to say they don't know either.

C

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02-10-2008 02:57 PM  10 years agoPost 77
Ronald Thomas

rrMaster

Gainesville, Fl, USA

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Tic,
Dude, just don't buy the Probar when it comes out. MIKADO THINKS IT IS A PROBLEM OTHERWISE THEY WOULD NOT BE TAKING STEPS TO RECTIFY IT
Enough said......Ron

Team MikadoUSA 480XXTreme, 550SX, 600SX, 700XXTreme, 800XXTreme!!

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02-10-2008 05:09 PM  10 years agoPost 78
Ticidytoc

rrApprentice

Los Angeles, Ca.

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Dude, just don't buy the Probar when it comes out.MIKADO THINKS IT IS A PROBLEM OTHERWISE THEY WOULD NOT BE TAKING STEPS TO RECTIFY IT
Enough said......Ron
LOL
Thanks for the tip Ron, I think I will stick to the V-Stabi for myself, it's NOT breaking my helicopter when I fly it.

I told you it was the future........

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02-10-2008 05:11 PM  10 years agoPost 79
Ronald Thomas

rrMaster

Gainesville, Fl, USA

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I'm done with this Moronathon. Peace!
Great! Please leave.
Yeah, I agree Mikado sees this as a problem, some guys out there are using their product to test a prototype flybarless system and parts are failing. Then these guys are complaining on a public forum that things are breaking, that the Mikado parts are faulty and holding Mikado responsible for a potential safety issue
So is EVERY other flybarless system not going to work with a Mikado heli? You are obviously not going to think objectively, just going to cheerlead.....Ron

Team MikadoUSA 480XXTreme, 550SX, 600SX, 700XXTreme, 800XXTreme!!

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02-10-2008 05:17 PM  10 years agoPost 80
Ticidytoc

rrApprentice

Los Angeles, Ca.

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Great! Please leave.
ok

I told you it was the future........

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